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Am I alone in being frosted off?

Mirr

Don't forget you can edit your posts here, KingJohnny :)

KingJohnny

Wow, I joined a month ago and already I have 40 posts. How'd that happen? :)

micinjensue

Quote:
KingJohnny

Wow, I joined a month ago and already I have 40 posts. How'd that happen? :)



Whoops right person, wrong message...go back a couple posts. :oops:

Hi KingJohnny, I don't think that Two Spear is more than a many many times great uncle to Cutter as it is. He was the brother of Huntress Skyfire who continued the wolfriders. Those two chiefs who followed each other were siblings and not father and daughter, there in lies the difference. I think that it is likely that Two Spear left the wolfriders before he fathered any cubs so Kahvi is just a cousin to Cutter, and many times removed.

KingJohnny

Wow, now look at how many posts I have. That's nothing compared to the thousands some of the old fogies here have. Of course, I mean the people who have been here longer, not their ages. Wink

As Mirr said a few posts ago, don't forget you can edit your posts Micinjensue. :)

Your mother's brother is your uncle. That uncle's daughter is your cousin. Your grandmother's brother is your great-uncle. That great-uncle's daughter is your...hmm, I think you're right. It would be a cousin, not an aunt. This whole great- and cousin many times removed stuff is confusing. I consider my dad's cousin, my 2nd cousin. That 2nd cousin's kid is my 3rd cousin. I know I am wrong because my brother and his wife were figuring out the many-times-removed stuff when they had their son, to figure out the relationship between our cousins and him. (They decided to just call everyone uncle or aunt to prevent confusion.) What I would consider my 2nd cousin is really my once removed cousin (or cousin, once removed, if you will)...I think.

Does this work for the great-great-greats as well? For my great-great grandmother, do I say my great-grandmother, once removed or twice removed? OR maybe three times removed?? Wait, does that mean your grandmother is really your mother once removed? *gives the Charlie Brown yell* UUUUGGGGHHHH!!!!

Well, if that's correct, then Skyfire is Cutter's 5 times-removed-mother or 4 times-great-grandmother. Back to what I was originally trying to say: if your grandmother's brother is your great-uncle, then your great-grandmother's brother is your great-great-uncle...again, I think. So, that would make Two-Spear Cutter's 5 times-great-uncle, which would make Kahvi Cutter's...WHAT????? *shakes fists in the air until head explodes*

Ok, I just worked it out on paper. She is Cutter's cousin, 5 times removed. Whew! You were right micinjensue. :)

I guess I could've edited this to be more concise but it was fun so I left it as it is.

lunakat

Let me put your mind at ease.

(WARNING: SPOILERS + RANT !)

The notion that kavhi is Two Spear's daughter is, IMHO, rediculous. i think it makes sense that the Go Backs are descended from Two Spear- that they are, in a sense, cousins to the Wolfriders. But so much time has passed that they should have had many generations and cheiftains in between. (Like the Wolfriders did!)

Yes, I know about the 'magical pool,' and I know that Kahvi, according to canon, is supposedly the daughter of Two Spear- However...

I consider that the deranged imaginings of a writer who was (at that moment) either burnt out or high. Said writer, due to either over-work or partying the previous night, lost the ability to imagine new characters. He/She knew the Go Backs were descended from Two Spear (according to the Pinis) and devised the most straight-forward connection possible. (As she/he was apparently unwilling to leave any mystery intact.

This same person later conferenced with the writer of the 'Wild Hunt' series and informed him/her that Tier should be directly descended from Kahvi- despite the 10,000 year gap in time. No generations in between. Nope. And furthermore, just to close the circle, she/he suggested- that Human hunter (Lenin-something-grad) should have battled Kahvi herself.

Which of course implies that she survived another 10,ooo years and jumped continents.

So, in conclusion- consider it a mistake. It was a wild rumor. It may even be revealed that the story itself (as depicted) is just a dream of Pike's - brought on by a bad dreamberry trip. Elvis is not alive either- and Michael Jackson is not white.

Thank you-

Luna

krwordgazer

Well argued, Luna. I, too, may perish of a surfeit of overly coincidental connections . . . :)

Arfurido

Luna, I totally agree with you. It's okay to think of one "simpe solution", but when they come up with three, well... it just gets too much. I'm fine by Lehrigen killing Kahvi, but the rest of it is a bit... weird. When we saw Teir for the first time, I was instantly thinking "yes!! All new elves! Maybe we'll get to meet his tribe and hear their stories!" but now it looks like there wasn't a tribe, just a cast-off from the same branch as Kahvi and Two-Spear. Think of the opportunities they had, and then it all just fell apart...

(Sorry, I'm having a bad english day. I'm sure you get my point :? ;))

Blackbird

But how old is Teir?

krwordgazer

That's the question, isn't it, Blackbird? Wink

micinjensue

I Love you Lunakat! (Erm...in a purely platonic way of course :twisted:) The way you think is just...wonderful. I agree, Kahvi as Two Spears daughter...Blech!. Ambiguous connects, like Teir now maybe being Kahvi's son...blech again. And Lehrigen killing Kahvi...hah! That would be as likely as Lehrigen killing Cutter. Not going to happen, not now, not ever... still it would have made a pretty spectacular fight! Engard!

Anyway, I began this string stating how much I hated the link between Kahvi and Two Spear, glad I am that you brought it back around to that topic.

And btw Blackbird, why does it matter how old Teir is?

micinjensue

God who are these people? Get them off this board! :x

lunakat

Since you asked- these 'people' are clearly all one pathetic loser who has too much time on his hands.

He apparently doesn't realize that little kids sometimes frequent this forum and that we like to keep it clean for them. I say ignore him till he figures it out- and hope someone buys him a clue.

Sorry kids!

(btw- luv you too, sweety!)

Wink

lunakat

(Mostly, he just seems pretty pitiful- bet he's never had a date.)

But back to topic:
So how many really obnoxious and unneccessary connections or coincidences exist in Elfquest?

We've already got: Kahvi as Two Spear's daughter.
The convenient, inexplicable magic puddle.
Tier as Kahvi's son.
Leningrad (sp?) as Kahvi's murderer.

And I'm going to add: Longreach and Brownberry as parents of Nightfall.
Any others? :P

Jeppe

Quote:
lunakat

He apparently doesn't realize that little kids sometimes frequent this forum and that we like to keep it clean for them.



Are you trying to keep it clean Surprised ...

Okay, someone ban Zebula and Blackbird Grin Wink

Quote:
lunakat

Leningrad (sp?) as Kahvi's murderer.



Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

You didn't mean THAT, did you luna?

lunakat

Well, "clean" is such a relative term...

Of course, I didn't mean spotless!

krwordgazer

I think she means "Lehrigen." Don't you like him, Lunakat? Or do you just not like him having (possibly-- I'd have to see the body first!) killed Kahvi?

lunakat

Well... I guess I was kind of joking. You know- 'seige of...' and the whole question of how long Kahvi actually was able to live...

On the other hand- I really don't know how to spell... (whatsisname? L-something!)

Wink

I don't dislike him as a character- I think he's rather interesting actually (a human that elves can relate to..) But I also think he's a bit too convenient (in the role of Kahvi's murderer)- and I don't exactly see why Ember is so obsessed. I mean- he isn't that great. And besides, Shuna makes him a moot point, don't you think?

krwordgazer

Well, I don't think Ember would think Shuna made Lehrigen a moot point. After all, Ember's tribe is an ocean away, and who knows when they'll see Cutter's half the tribe again?

I can see Ember's visionary abilities making her "obsess" with Lehrigen a bit. After all, he's their best hope for really making a place for themselves in an increasingly human world. Funny, then, that the author lets the whole thing sort of peter out by not having Lehrigen come back to them till he's dying.

As the murderer of Kahvi, I agree, it's too convenient. I somehow can't believe that Kahvi died that way, if she died at all. After all, shouldn't she have died about 7000 years before? (If she really has wolf blood, that is? Surprised )

Jeppe

Quote:
krwordgazer

(If she really has wolf blood, that is? Surprised )



But she doesn't... And if she has... She's still somehow immortal...

Trollbabe

I would have really liked to see Teir as the biological son of a totally unrelated Plains tribe. His relationship with Kahvi is a bit too soap-opera-ish. Of course, all of this constant inbreeding is why Elves are so inferior to Trolls.

roboturtle

As it sounds like all the storylines by other authors (or anything in them) are now potentially non-canon, it's possible that a few of these things will change. It does look like Tier is Kahvi's son, but his father might still have been a cool and unrelated plains elf.

I'm kind of looking at all the other stories as though they were told and retold so many times that the details changed (or else I'd just get annoyed at the revisionism, I guess). That's how I looked at the Worldpool and BoTC stories, back then, because of the inconsistencies.

Was it ever stated in a Pini-written story that Kahvi is Two-Spear's daughter? Because that might not be the case. It'd be weird to change that now, since there was that entire miniseries, but that was a long time ago, and there were some inconsistencies and other issues with it. There are also other, surprisingly significant details from other stories, that were also changed/edited out for Final Quest, and actually farther back, beginning maybe with Searcher and the Sword and Discovery.

RichardPini

Otto von Bismarck, the chancellor of Germany during the 19th century, famously said "There are two things you don’t want to see being made—sausage and legislation." To this we would add "...and big sprawling creation myths." Over the course of nearly forty years - longer than some of you have been alive! - we've been weaving Elfquest's complex tapestry. At times, because in our enthusiasm we wanted to explore more of the World of Two Moons that ever possible for two people to manage, we invited other writers and artists to play in our creative sandbox. Many of them did really nice work, too. But the truth we discovered during this grand experiment was that no matter how much someone else loves Elfquest, there's a rock-bottom, DNA-level understanding of the way things work that no one but the original creators can grasp. Which is how you, gentle readers, come up with the questions about canon versus non-canon, this author's story versus that author's story, that you ask. Are there vagaries in the collected mass of Elfquest comics and prose that have appeared over 36-plus years? Yes. Does that bother us? Not really; we feel we're in some pretty good company. Star Trek. Star Wars. Most of the big names of the Marvel and DC Comics universes. What do you like better? Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's X-Men comics of the 1960s? Or Bryan Singer's cinematic version from a few weeks ago? Or don't restrict yourself. It's all right to enjoy both. Or neither. When it comes right down to it, Wendy and I like most that which we've built ourselves. Which is why we made the decision to bring Elfquest back to its creative roots, just the two of us, crafting a finale to a grand "hero's journey." When we're done, perhaps in time for Elfquest's 40th anniversary, we will have answered every crucial question we raised about these lovely, scrappy characters starting in Fantasy Quarterly #1. Sometimes that will involve retelling events you read years ago, from a different point of view - because the way those things got expressed back in the day simply can't carry the same weight as the vision we have evolved for Final Quest. When all is done, will we have answered every one of your questions? That depends on you, now, doesn't it...

RedheadEmber

Trollbabe said: I would have really liked to see Teir as the biological son of a totally unrelated Plains tribe. His relationship with Kahvi is a bit too soap-opera-ish. Of course, all of this constant inbreeding is why Elves are so inferior to Trolls.


You really shouldn't talk to loud about inbreeding: What with Picky's trolls being created the way they were.

:P

roboturtle

RichardPini said: But the truth we discovered during this grand experiment was that no matter how much someone else loves Elfquest, there's a rock-bottom, DNA-level understanding of the way things work that no one but the original creators can grasp. Which is how you, gentle readers, come up with the questions about canon versus non-canon, this author's story versus that author's story, that you ask.


Well, I was initially bothered by the changes. I saw them as inconsistencies, rather than as deliberate changes. Since then I've come to realize and appreciate that you're weaving different threads together in a new way. I enjoy this aspect of Final Quest, too. But, even so, as a fan, I make some guesses, mostly to myself, as to what threads make it in to Final Quest, and what might change. It's fun guessing what comes next and mixing it up with what I understand of the other stories. I like many of the other stories, too, including Wild Hunt, even though the timeline is inconsistent between it and Final Quest. I also liked many of the worldpool stories. So, you know, I can see your point and agree that it's fine to enjoy the older stories, even if they're not canon after all, or if there are some inconsistencies in the details. But, I'm still going to notice the differences. :)

Trollbabe

Nobody really knows where Picky got all of his descendants. He had plenty of centuries to get in touch with wandering Trolls. Or at least, we like to think so...

krwordgazer

Only fundamentalists require an inerrant canon. It's so much better to allow it some freedom of movement, some invention and reinvention. ;)

lunakat

Having all the answers and everything tidy and neat is boring! In the long and murky history of the elves- there should be some mystery.

lunakat

You know... I always hated the idea that Kahvi was Two Spears daughter. I liked that the Go Backs were the descendants of Two Spear- and cousins to the Wolfriders. That was cool. But to have Kahvi be the direct daughter of Two Spear, without a handful of generations inbetween in all those years- especially considering how the Go Backs lived- seemed implausible.

RedheadEmber

I guess this is one of the reasons I don't really buy the theory I've seen around here that Rain's lifemate was Clearbrook's daughter, and that Shale was their son as well. Why can't Rain's lifemates (I believe he had two, at the same time, you know me, I like three-matings. ;) ) have been completely different people, while Shale was the son of yet another unknown couple?

Another one is the Moonshade might be the daughter of Mantricker because Mantricker was a lovemate of Moonshade's (supposed) mother, Brightwater. Isn't Bearclaw stated to be significantly older than the rest of the Wolfriders during 'Wolfrider', to the point where he's the only one who remembers the time of Mantricker*? Even if Brightwater was pregnant with Moonshade by the time of Mantricker's death it still wouldn't fit as several of the other elders are older than Moonshade.

*Of course this doesn't fit with the Longreach/branch lived through the times of several chiefs statement.


On the other hand; I want there to be random descendants of Dart running around in the Palace. After all; they'd be descendants of Woodlock and Rainsong as well. Recognition is basically in their genes.

lunakat

You know what? I totally agree. I would add something- but you covered it. If a Wolfrider's live was truly "short and sharp," as Bearclaw claimed- and if, indeed, some generations had passed... there would have been more alive and killed than we got to see as readers. I like that shadowed history. It's more plausible than having everything neatly connected.