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If you could change ONE thing (SPOILERS!)

krwordgazer

If there was one, and only one, event you had the power to change in the Elfquest story, what would it be?

(This isn't a "criticize the plot" thread, but a "I wish that hadn't happened" thread. Or a "I wish this had happened instead" thread. It's about something that happened to the characters that made you sad, or mad, even if it worked well in the plot.) :)

NOTE: This is intended to start with the Blood of Ten Chiefs and go all the way through Future Quest. So there will probably be spoilers!)

NightAngel

Ooeh easy..That One Eye was still alive and made a baby with Clearbrook :D

*a second recognition like

SatS
SPOILER





SPOILER








Strongbow and Moonshade =)

Wouldn't that be fuN!????

Kathleen

Actually their third, like Strongbow and Moonshade! :D

I only get one?/whining.

NightAngel

Haha ooops, I forgot Scouter hahahaa Grin

Kathleen

That's okay. He's forgettable soemtimes.

*Runs away before Reyes Lord can find her*

NightAngel

Oh second thing I'd like to change if I had the power, is that the babygirl of One Eye and Clearbrook didn't die.

Hey, let's discuss her name..or how she died..
What name had our lovely couple in mind for her?
-but that's maybe feed for a differant topic- *looks at Gazer*

So, maybe Scouter didn't live at all!
-and ofcourse, that third recognitian I was talking about earlier wouldn't be neccesary too-

twinklebug

I would have Shale and Eyes High live! It might not change the plot much, but I'd still like to have them around.

Hydra_Lord

It was cresent wasn't it??

killed by humans?

NightAngel

Nay, that's Strongbows&Moonshade's cub.

The babygirl of Clearbrook&One Eye is unnamed :(

Tifa

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twinklebug

I would have Shale and Eyes High live! It might not change the plot much, but I'd still like to have them around.


Oooohhh yeah, me too!! :D
Although I don't agree that it wouldn't really change the plot; I think Skywise would've had a little different character, his parents still alive and all.

And how about, no madcoil? Everyone would still be around, Foxfur, Rain, Longbranch and others...

Suzene

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NightAngel

The babygirl of Clearbrook&One Eye is unnamed :(



There's some speculation that she might have been Moth from the BoTC novels.

My fondest hope fpr a retcon is and always will be that the Go-Backs are not just bred-down Wolfriders. And Kahvi never fell into any farking plot-device pool.

Hydra_Lord

Ahh sorry, i thought we were still discussing strongbow and moonshade.

Anke

Get rid of "How Shall I Keep From Singing?" and instead add "In Memory Green" to comic-canon.

Skywise2

Oooooone-Eyeeeeeeee! ;___;

krwordgazer

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Anke

Get rid of "How Shall I Keep From Singing?" and instead add "In Memory Green" to comic-canon.



What is "In Memory Green"? Surprised

I'd have to say, I'd make it so Rayek never stole Cutter's family and took the Palace forward in time. So much suffering alleviated! And then we'd see what life would be like for the elves, staying in prehistoric times-- we could have more Nonna and Adar stories!

Anke

A story from "Dark Hours", centering on of the High Ones.
I like it a lot, but it doesn't fit with the comic. Both stories have Timmain, but apart from her, none of the characters from the story are in the comic, and the other way round.

MaxvonBek

Off the top of my head, I'd make it so that Leetah heals Winnie back in OQ, and that someone else (anyone else) would take over role as villian, such as the two Doors, who wake up during SaBM, and then through whatever transpires, Winnie ends up helping the Wolfriders beat them, although to the same end, but a few more Gliders would survive this time, choosing life instead of spirit.

Suzene

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krwordgazer

[quote:b1f41ebde7="Anke"]Get rid of "How Shall I Keep From Singing?" and instead add "In Memory Green" to comic-canon.



What is "In Memory Green"? Surprised [/quote:b1f41ebde7]

The creation of dreamberries. A very sad story, but I had to smile anyway.

lunakat

Rayek does not drive the Go Backs from the Palace. No massive earthquake and huge dividing gorge. No 10,000 year time gap.

Nowth

I'd have left the Palace in ruins. Home-feeling ruins, maybe, but ruins. It was a lot prettier and more atmospheric then.

And if they wanted to travel, they would've had to make their own big magical spaceship, which would've been more interesting.

Or maybe they could've started building sailboats, etc., and learn a thing or two from humans.

NightAngel

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Suzene

[quote:0824fb69e4="NightAngel"]The babygirl of Clearbrook&One Eye is unnamed :(



There's some speculation that she might have been Moth from the BoTC novels.
[/quote:0824fb69e4]
Only in the novels?

scarlettdoll

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Suzene

My fondest hope fpr a retcon is and always will be that the Go-Backs are not just bred-down Wolfriders. And Kahvi never fell into any farking plot-device pool.


I agree with this! Or else that Winnie would cease being the bad guy after bk 8.

Oh, and that story about Winnowill creating new babies in Blue Mountain but then causing them to be taken back into the mothers would never happen b/c I frankly find that rather farfetched.

Leanan

This is a tough question...

I mean, the story is very good as it is... less deaths would make it too sugary... and if Winnie as villain gets a bit boring after a while, at least she has better dress sense than Door... I mean, what's with that ridiculous skull belt for example...? :P

MaxvonBek

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Bonita

The only thing that I wanted different is that Newstar went along with the Wolfriders to find Cutter. I'm sure her uncle or Moonshade and Strongbow would have looked after her. Thats just a small change but what would it all bring with it?!


Kimo might never have been born, and that would be a shame. He's starting to come into his own since SatS! :D

Kitt

Speaking of which, I'm surprised that Bonita didn't say that the one thing she wished was changed was the fact that Newstar's recognition and subsuquent lifemating were completely overlooked in the world of Abode! ...heck! Even I want to know that!

PanzerKitten

..not letting Barry Blair and his company of bad illustrators coming near EQ.. He sucks big times. Can't really understand what the Pinis were thinking when they allowed him to destroy their beautiful vivid elves! Someone must have owed him a BIG favour.

No seriously, I know that wasn't what the question was about. I really don't know what I'd change.. I havn't read much of the non-Wendy work because of the crappy illustrations and not being able to lay my hands on too many of these books either. I mean, come on! A crappy illustratior destroys SO much of the story.
Hmm. I think I'll add my vote to Winnowill being healed by Leetah. She actually deserves to be whole, I think. So much pain and torment could be washed away within her.

ReyesLord

*runs in with "I love Scouter" banner*

What? What? Scouter forgettable?! *twirls banner around like a weapon and looks around for Kathleen*

Ahem, I mean *hides banner behind back* :D

Anyway, if one thing was changed, I'd have Woodlock, Rainsong, and Wing choose wrapstuff like Newstar instead of having them die of old age. That way they could reunite with their tribe when Cutter came back and Rainsong and Woodlock could Recognize, again! Because you so know that they would. Grin

Kchaiya

Alright, well, everyone is going to seriously hate me for saying this, but I'm going to be the first one to say that I would have a dead character stay dead instead of bringing a dead one back to life....

It completely screwed with me when Ahdri was miraculously recovered in SatS. First of all, I felt it cheapened Windkin's mourning scene (which didn't have a lot of weight behind it to begin with, since we never saw one single panel of them together), and secondly, it makes the whole thing with the Rebels in Sarazen make a whole lot less sense. Who is the elf in wrapstuff behind the sun symbol, then? Why do the rocks move by themselves, if it's not Ahdri's spirit, as was made so very clear in the pre- [i:9102ee7b28]deus ex machina[/i:9102ee7b28] version of Ahdri's story? As cruel as it sounds, if I could change one thing, I would have her stay dead.

Sorry to all who are offended by this post.

Thallasia

If I may speculate a bit....

Who was the elf in wrapstuff? maybe it's Windkin
Why do the rocks move by themselves? the spirit of Savah's lifemate still lives in those rocks, he may be moving them around...

I do agree that Ahdri's rediscovery was a bit farfetched.


Something that I would change: that Windkin went to live with the Wolfriders after te Palace returned, he and aroree may have found some comfort with eachother. :)

Arfurido

Not letting "the way" into the time gap. This was a brilliant opportunity to create a bunch of new, interesting wolfriders. The "old bunch" could have slept in wrapstuff and be awakened for the reppearance as they did. I don't like the whole "not moving on because of Leetah" stuff. Life always has to move on, and this no recognitions and new cubs nor deaths in 10,000 years bothers me. A lot.

Kitt

[color=green:b0e62162db]...I think the way Dart's recognition was glossed over was a bit wrong. I would have liked to see more of him as a happy father. And for that matter, more of his son.[/color:b0e62162db]

Thallasia

I agree with Arfurido here. I was very dissapointed with the lack of births during those 10.000 years. Especially if you compare it to the number of elves born in the previous 10.000 years...
If the Wolfriders had not gone in wrapstuff than Skywise and the twins would have been all that was left...not a very good survival strategy for a mortal tribe... Wink

Prism

I agree with Bonita about Newstar tagging along and her recognition was after Seige At Blue Mountain anyway. I also want to know the name of Clearbrook's daughter and feel that Woodlock and Rainsong got shafted.

manga

Shock shock, I know. But I'd make Rayek happy. A happy Rayek wouldn't have made the time trip. Rayek would be happy and so would Cutter. And, like Wordgazer said, we'd still have our stone-age humans to play with. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

Aldar

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Leanan

[...]if Winnie as villain gets a bit boring after a while, at least she has better dress sense than Door... I mean, what's with that ridiculous skull belt for example...? :P


Of course. That's reason good enough for me to keep Winnie around.

What I would change? Easy-peasy. No 10,000 year gap creating new elves and other characters I feel nothing for. Oh, and as somone mentioned earlier, couldn't they have left Ahdri dead? I don't want any of the dead characters to have survived, but I guess that doesn't com as a shock... :roll:

Nowth

Only excuse for the skull belt I can think of is that it's what impressed those human pets of his...

innie

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Arfurido

Not letting "the way" into the time gap. This was a brilliant opportunity to create a bunch of new, interesting wolfriders. The "old bunch" could have slept in wrapstuff and be awakened for the reppearance as they did. I don't like the whole "not moving on because of Leetah" stuff. Life always has to move on, and this no recognitions and new cubs nor deaths in 10,000 years bothers me. A lot.



It bothers me too. I mean, I still like the storyline, but if you compare this 10.000 year gap with the 10.000 years that have happened before the oq, it's nothing. I understand Cutter's deep grieve but he should have let Leetah go, the others should have helped him with that.
I do know what a support Nightfall was, for example, although it bothers me a bit she sees Rayek and Kahvi as villains (dreamtime). She's known for the fact she can always see things from both sides, but it's always from Cutter's point of view.
Still, I think it's fascinating to see how much Cutter changed. Eventhough I do not completely like what happened and how he changed, I like the story for keeping me fascinated.
I don't want the wolfridertribe to stagnate. After the appearance we have had two recognitions and two deaths, so I guess the tribe is moving on.
But I wanted more of that 10.000 year time gap. Things are moving on too fast with the new series, I want to know what's going on inside the heads of our beloved elves. We used to know how they feel because the powerful drawings told the story. And I don't say I do not like the stories after kotbw, I do, but the expressions on the faces of the elves are simplified, if that makes sense.

cactus

Surprised *Gasp*!!!
Aldar!!!
*Gulps for air*
I forgot!!!
*Puts eyeballs back into head*


Sorry guys :oops: .

Bluedepth

hmm..
i'm going for NO MADCOIL!
or NO KILLING CRESCENT!
or ANY OF THE WOLFRIDERS that we know....

Blackbird

Hmm..First of all, Crescent never died! Then she would grow up to be a strong huntress, and a great archer, something like her grandmother, and I guess a very interesting character!
Madcoil was horrible, but without him, Bearclaw would be chief, and I don't think it would have ended in Sun village

And then..Leetah would heal Winnowill in the end of Siege, so the gliders didn't die, guess that would be interesting, a Winnowill that didn't want to kill everyone..not expecting she would be a happyhappy queen like Savah, but interesting..and maybe she and Rayek would have recognized.

THEN..NOOOO 10.000 time cap! Brings up new things, like Ember & Sunstream gets a more normal childhood, together with Venka, Yun, Mender, Kimo (?) & Tyleet, Chepair most likely would survive, and it wouldn't be no Shards ( Zhantee & Skot alive, and no Teir :D )
Oh, and with peace, and Leetah around, maybe more couples would ask her to help force recognizion, more cubs
Wouldn't be no Shuna, and Wavedancers, but who knows?

dewshine_lover_1

oh wow..thats a good point...but i would stil like to see rillfisher and joyleaf still alive. hehe and i think windkin needs to come home to audri and produce their long awaited cub.

Blackbird

Rillfisher should be alive, I agree.

Oh, and Vaya!

Arrow

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dewshine_lover_1

hehe and i think windkin needs to come home to audri and produce their long awaited cub.


Definately!!!! I totally agree with you on that. :D I'll post more later cuz I'm not supposed to be online right now.....Hehehe.

dewshine_lover_1

yes i was most unfortunately hurt when i thought audri had died... to see her alive in the searcher in the sword was a relief...for a long time i used to tell my friend colleen that i wish audri was still alive...and that it would be cool if they found her in the rocks...and so they have..i was very happy...but now that shes alive..windkin is no where to be found. they had supposed to have recognized but not have answered the call of that recognition before the humans attacked..am i right? well if i am than i hope he comes home soon...that would be a really happy day.

twinklebug

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Kitt

...I think the way Dart's recognition was glossed over was a bit wrong. I would have liked to see more of him as a happy father. And for that matter, more of his son.


Yes! I agree!

Nowth

Isn't it strange -- characters who, objectively speaking, were relatively invisible and did not really participate in the main quest, are missed so much. Ahdri, Rillfisher, Crescent, One-Eye, Shale, and living ones like Skywise's sunshine trio have their fans as well... yay for the Pinis, I guess, for pulling that off. They get their handful of panels or perhaps a starring role in a one-shot story and wham! We're intrigued!

Now, I don't exactly want EQ to be some sort of happy place where nothing ever hurts, but still...

Leanan

I've noticed that a large number of the suggested changes are not changes at all, just wishes to know more about certain characters... I guess that means I'm not the only person thinking the story is good the way it is.

Nowth

With the prevalence of recognition, cub and life- and lovemate themes all over the place here... I wonder if people still think of it as a story primarily, or as a kind of, hm, reality that better be as good for everyone as possible? (I don't know if that made sense)

dewshine_lover_1

i call rillfisher by mother all the time..sice dewshine has been my favorite elf since i started reading elfquest 15 years ago. sometimes if you read a post ive done...youll see me say..mother or father...hehehe oh well

Tifa

No worries daughter... heh... :roll:

jadengems

Okay, I have two:

First, I would have never created any of the Future Quest story...it was just too upsetting to me to read. I never could enjoy the story because I was so upset at the fact all the elves had left Abode. And the art was deplorable, in my opinion.

I semi-liked Jink, but still...ick, eww, and yuk.

To me, reading those comics (even though I own them all) was like reading the Old Testament backwards.

Also, I'd so have liked Joyleaf to have survived...somehow. *sniff*

Kathleen

I liked the futurequest, what little I saw of it. I just treat it like a Worldpool, though, because the elf leaving was sad for me, too.

Although, IMO, Chandra was waaaaaaay hot, and Rosie was a cutie pie!

LivietheLurker

One weird little thing I would have liked to see: it seems pretty clear to that elves don't know much about the workings of the human body (and why should they?). In SaBM Cutter says to Nonna: "[...] I can see you've been very busy!", referring to the three children Nonna and Adar have adopted. We know he isn't teasing, because when he sneaks into the their hut he thinks that the fact that they had three children was "quick work!"

So I wonder what the elves must have thought when Shuna had her period the first time after she was adopted by them.

Weirdlet

I'd be willing to bet they called Leetah in very quickly at the first scent of blood- this human cub of theirs is injured somewhere inside, and I can see a lot of surprised looks when it turns out that it's part of a cycle vastly different from their own.

Foxeye

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Anke

Get rid of "How Shall I Keep From Singing?" and instead add "In Memory Green" to comic-canon.



Oh, thank you for reminding me of this!! Yes, that is absolutely what I'd go for as well. I loved that story...it *felt* very much like the true spirit of the stories. Whereas the one that was made into canon felt like bad fan fiction. :(

Second, of course, would have been for Crescent to stay around.

That said, I'm highly of the opinion that the author who added Crescent to the story confused her with Clearbrook's lost daughter. I don't think they ever intended Strongbow and Moonshade to have an older child. Not that I mind...but from her creation poor Crescent had no purpose other than to be mourned.

manga

Well, if I had my druthers and could REALLY make a change...

It'd be about Rayek! Go ahead and let Cutter have Leetah, she never deserved Rayek anyway, but follow Rayek once he leaves the Sun Village! Watching him learn, change and grow would be much more interesting than watching "Little Mr. Perfct, Elf-mom and -pop's obviously favorite child" blunder around.

But then, we all know how biased I am. These days I'm usually a bit nicer about it tho'. Forgive me all, I'm up waaaaay to late and am still aching from the total lack of Rayek-fix. Five or so years of withdrawal is not fun. ;)

LivietheLurker

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dewshine_lover_1

yes i was most unfortunately hurt when i thought audri had died... to see her alive in the searcher in the sword was a relief...for a long time i used to tell my friend colleen that i wish audri was still alive...and that it would be cool if they found her in the rocks...and so they have..i was very happy...but now that shes alive..windkin is no where to be found. they had supposed to have recognized but not have answered the call of that recognition before the humans attacked..am i right? well if i am than i hope he comes home soon...that would be a really happy day.



No, I'm afraid that Windkin and Ahdri have never Recognized. They were love-/lifemates, but there was never any mention of a cub, nor is there any indication on the "Who's who" page: ( http://www.elfquest.com/pubs/bios/Sunfolk/Ahdri.html ) of her ever having had children.

lunakat

Quote:
manga

Well, if I had my druthers and could REALLY make a change...

It'd be about Rayek! Go ahead and let Cutter have Leetah, she never deserved Rayek anyway, but follow Rayek once he leaves the Sun Village! Watching him learn, change and grow would be much more interesting than watching "Little Mr. Perfct, Elf-mom and -pop's obviously favorite child" blunder around.



But Cutter's quest was what the whole story is about!

Without Cutter and his "bumbling," there would be no Elfquest! The title just of the series just wouldn't make sense! (And he is, after all, the main character!) A story about Rayek stumbling through the desert and troll caves would have to be called "ElfAngst" or "S/Elf Realization Exercise"- as it's not a quest.

My one change would have to do with Rayek as well- but it's more a pet peeve with regard to his character. I loved his character arc by the end of book 4- how he started as a spoiled, arrogant and self centered jerk, then learned what true suffering was through Ekuar, and acquired humility and compassion. The reformed Rayek who became Master of the Palace was great- (he was humbled...but not too humbled! Wink)

Even books 5 and 6 seemed like natural progression for his character. Of course, he would seek for more knowledge and power... of course he'd clash with Kahvi... of course his pride would flare up again and drive him to make mistakes... and of course he'd fall, but have acquired something in the struggle- the souls of the Gliders!

The part I don't get is "crazy Rayek" flipping out! That just made so little sense! I mean, yeah- it's plausible and they set up the ground work for it, but it was so extreme! It was like "yeah, I'm made at my girlfriend- let me turn homicidal! That'll get it out of my system. There, much better now!"

So- that's my change. No homicidal Rayek, and no 10,000 year gap. :P

manga

I don't mean to cancel Cutter's quest entirely. Let that continue but let the focus, or at least more of the focus, be on Rayek.

And yeah. No homocidal wig-out.

Kathleen

Oh god. Tell me, peopel what does the word "protaganist" mean to you?

WHo is the "protagonist" in Elfquest? Who is the "Antagonist"?

manga

Well, actually, Rayek isn't "the" antagonist. He's an antagonist a couple of times. EQ doesn't really have any specific antagonists who are always at the center of the problem.

Besides, that was my point. I'd switch who the protagonist was. That doesn't necessarily mean I would make Cutter the antagonist, just give "Mr. Lucky Goody-Two-Shoes" a smaller role.

lunakat

(coughWinnowilcough)

manga

She's not ALWAYS the problem. Is she the problem in Discovery? Is she the problem in Quest's End? She wasn't even the problem in Kings of the Broken Wheel-- she was A problem but not THE problem. She didn't show up at all in New Blood. In Shards she was part of the problem but she shared that role with Grohmul Djun. In my definition a character who has the title of "THE antagonist" is one who is involved in every single storyline. Winnowill has been in many but not all. It's like saying Magneto is THE antagonist of X-men. He's big yes, but there are others too.

lunakat

In Quest's End, the antagonist was Guttlecraw.

The elves, however, were fighting a war orchestrated by Two Edge who was tortured into madness by Winnowil.

In 'Discovery,' I think we'll find that Winni was the one who reshaped "The Broken one" who is the symbol of the Wavedancer's "shame" according to Surge...

I agree- she isn't the only antagonist. But she certainly evolved into the primary one!

And protagonist? Cutter. Generally speaking- Cutter.

Giviyah

Here's what I would change:

1 - keep Brownberry alive from Madcoil's attack - too young & sweet to die :?
2 - have another recognition in the 10,000 years, and in the same light, have Clearbrook with someone other than Treestump. How about Clearbrook & Pike? Venka & Mender? Yun & Treestump? Something unpredictable to shake things up. :?:

innie

I agree about the recognitions, but Clearbrook and Pike would really be the weirdest match ever in my opinion Wink and it would indeed be very unpredictable

Kestral

clearbrook and pike... thats like getting aahh... :twisted: Ember and Rayek recognized.

MultiMEDEA

That Voll should live.

Now, I generally HATE the idea of dead characters making a comeback, but I never felt he should have died in the first place. I almost feel that the Pinis created such an outstanding character just so that he could die dramatically and that's always felt...wrong...to me. The character of Voll was almost as much a nexus for change in the Quest as Cutter is. Think about it: an elf who--through his own will, charisma, and drive--kept the largest, most powerful group of their people protected and intact for the longest period of time. Whose awakened desire to return all elves to their birthright was even stronger than Cutter's. Strongbow was rightfully scared that Cutter was becoming too much like Voll in Blue Mountain. It seems like the Glider Lord's whole life and shocking death were only set out to be a big Object Lesson to Cutter. And that seems cheap. Dramatically defensible, perhaps, but the same story goals could have been achieved other ways.

Kathleen

However, if Lord Voll had lived, in all likelihood, we would've been out a lot of storylines.

krwordgazer

I think Voll could perhaps have died more heroically, fighting to get his "children" to the Palace. That would have been an appropriate ending for him-- coming out of his living death back into full life, and spending that life in one last, glorious fight to the finish. Instead, he was killed almost by accident. But I don't find that accident cheap. I think that, for the sake of the plot as a whole, Voll had to be removed at that point (even as Dumbledore had to be removed from the Harry Potter series). Because the wise parent-figure, having brought the hero to a certain point, must leave the picture or end up upstaging and usurping the hero's role. That it was so inglorious for Voll was, I suppose, because technically he was not the hero, but only a catalyst for the hero. And I think it's part of the realistic feel we get from Elfquest-- not every death is glorious, not every battle heroic.

Voll did at least die finally striving for what he wanted and needed to attain, rather than dying still stuck in his lethargy in Blue Mountain.

MultiMEDEA

I thought Dumbledore died because Richard Harris died? (Sorry, I don't follow the Harry Potter stuff.)

Suzene

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MultiMEDEA

I thought Dumbledore died because Richard Harris died? (Sorry, I don't follow the Harry Potter stuff.)



Dumbledore hasn't died in the movies (yet), just the books. They're catching up, though.

Suzene

joselle

Well, with the whole Harry Potter/Dumbledore thing that's serious "Hero's Journey" stuff....the death and/or betrayal of the "Mentor" figure propells the hero to forfill his own destiny. Think Star Wars and the Luke/ Obiwan relationship. Total Hero's Journey.

but back on topic....

hmmmm....change one thing.....

not have Winnowill change Windkin's blood. That always seemed really terrible to me, even though Leetah and Dewshine did say that it was kinda okay.......

Giviyah

Another thing I would change is the whole Kahvi being the lost child of Two-Spear. It's so soap-opera ish. I can see how she could be the descendant of the Two-Spear clan, but the whole frozen for 100's of years with no cellular decay doesn't make sense (freezer burn). Also, her not having a tribe name is odd. Willowgreen, Two-Spear, Greywolf, all have tribesnames, but she is just called Kahvi. Very strange. Seems like an afterthought plot twist to me.

Giviyah

krwordgazer

My husband says if he could change one thing, he'd give Wing a real part in the story.

MultiMEDEA

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krwordgazer

My husband says if he could change one thing, he'd give Wing a real part in the story.


I always believed he was a smart man of good taste. Especially if he likes the Belgariad stories. :D

krwordgazer

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MultiMEDEA

[quote:bb8620b5fa="krwordgazer"]My husband says if he could change one thing, he'd give Wing a real part in the story.


I always believed he was a smart man of good taste. Especially if he likes the Belgariad stories. :D[/quote:bb8620b5fa]

Of course! He married me, didn't he? Grin

I'm going to have to read that Belgariad series myself. . .

Tastyfish

I really like the idea of the Rayek story, especially if it didn't start with him leaving the Sun village, but with the Wolf rider's arrival and told the story from his point of view, as long as it was willing to play with the canon material. Not so much what happened, but what Rayek thought happened assuming the version we saw was how Cutter would tell the tale.

On the subject of Rayek (and on topic) I'd have been interested to see what would have happened if Winnowill had completed shaping him back into an original High One, especially when he got back to the Sun village and met Sava again.

SoftPrettyBigThing

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Arfurido

I don't like the whole "not moving on because of Leetah" stuff. Life always has to move on,



I think part of the reason Cutter couldn't move on is the wolfriders didn't know how far Rayek had gone into the future, it could have been as little a year, a hundred years. so Cutter was always waiting for Leetah, hoping that the next minute they may appear in the sky. Also he could never give up because he knew for certain that they were coming back, if only he knew when.


Not something I'd nessissarily change, but an interesting 'what if', what if Bearclaw had gone all out against the humans :?: (as he suggested when Joyleaf was pregnant in fact) The elves never actually attack they humans, they trick them and the defend each other, but they never hunt and attack the humans as the humans hunt them.

But the elves are better than the humans, metal weapons rather than stone, they're faster, and they're mounted. They could even have hired some mercanary trolls for some brute strength, who could have ambushed the humans by tunneling under theyre camp while the elves mounted a frontal assault. Imagine the shock for the humans seeing trolls for the first time? (im getting a real battle plan going here :twisted: )

They could have exterminated the humans, why didn't they? (i know the answer tho, because they're hunters not murderers, and Bearclaw couldn't risk that many lives in his tribe, but still, an interesting 'what if'.) Wink

innie

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Soft Pretty Big Thing

[quote:89d5b0862a="Arfurido"]I don't like the whole "not moving on because of Leetah" stuff. Life always has to move on,



I think part of the reason Cutter couldn't move on is the wolfriders didn't know how far Rayek had gone into the future, it could have been as little a year, a hundred years. so Cutter was always waiting for Leetah, hoping that the next minute they may appear in the sky. Also he could never give up because he knew for certain that they were coming back, if only he knew when.


[/quote:89d5b0862a]

I think you're right, I'd never thought about that. We all know how hard it was for Cutter. The wolf inside of him must have been in constant conflict with his elfin side.

[quote:89d5b0862a]Not something I'd nessissarily change, but an interesting 'what if', what if Bearclaw had gone all out against the humans :?: (as he suggested when Joyleaf was pregnant in fact) The elves never actually attack they humans, they trick them and the defend each other, but they never hunt and attack the humans as the humans hunt them.

But the elves are better than the humans, metal weapons rather than stone, they're faster, and they're mounted. They could even have hired some mercanary trolls for some brute strength, who could have ambushed the humans by tunneling under theyre camp while the elves mounted a frontal assault. Imagine the shock for the humans seeing trolls for the first time? (im getting a real battle plan going here :twisted: )

They could have exterminated the humans, why didn't they? (i know the answer tho, because they're hunters not murderers, and Bearclaw couldn't risk that many lives in his tribe, but still, an interesting 'what if'.) Wink[/quote:89d5b0862a]

I'm so glad they haven't exterminated the humans. I know the humans have done some pretty bad things, but to exterminate a whole species? That would make them ten times as worse as the humans. Maybe if Joyleaf weren't around to keep Bearclaw in check, it could have gone that way, who knows? I wonder if the trolls would have gone into war with the elves. What was in it for them?

SoftPrettyBigThing

[quote:c127273668]I wonder if the trolls would have gone into war with the elves. What was in it for them?[/quote:c127273668]

I think they could have been convinced to, if the price was right. Its one thing they always say about the trolls is that they are utterly materialistic. I think Graymug definatly would have had a price for the lives of his subjects, though i doubt it would have been anything less than elven slavery, which is just another reason why this didn't happen.

MultiMEDEA

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Soft Pretty Big Thing

They could have exterminated the humans, why didn't they? (i know the answer tho, because they're hunters not murderers, and Bearclaw couldn't risk that many lives in his tribe, but still, an interesting 'what if'.) Wink


I'm not sure I know what you mean by 'exerminate the humans' or what purpose that might serve toward the Wolfriders' continued survival. That particular set of humans (in Bearclaw's time) was merely one settlement of people in a whole planetful of them. Even if the Wolfriders had cold-bloodedly exterminated every man, woman, and child of that particular village, what about the village over the next hill, or in the next valley, or across the pond, etc., etc. Waging an all-out war against all of humanity is a bound-to-lose proposition for all elves, not just the Wolfriders. As wiser heads amoung the tribes have reasoned out long ago. :D

SoftPrettyBigThing

I think i was thinking specifically those two tribes, the wolfriders and Gotara, because the humans do intend to wipe out all the wolfriders, and even though they are driven away several times, (by the weather mostly it seems, but i might be wrong about that) they keep coming back it seems the only thing that will stop them is death.

Though they say they are doing it to 'cleanse the land' I dont think the Shaman would have been satisfied if the wolfriders had moved on and left the forest to them, not if he thought they were still out there, because what he really wants is revenge not land (if he would have been satisfied with that then maybe they would have stayed away when they moved on, or they could have shared the forest).

Though its an idea of what they could have done, I think I agree its not a very good one. As you said, its only a short term solution and though it may have saved some lives (Shale and Eyeshigh maybe?) it could have cost the lives of even more beloved characters (Strongbow? Treestump? Skywise?) so im glad they didn't, yay for the wisdom of Joyleaf :D

krwordgazer

Excellent points, Medea! :D

And you too, Soft-Pretty. (Hope it's ok if I shorten your name. :) ) Killing off the Gotaras would have been very costly to the Wolfriders-- even that one tribe of humans outnumbered them by quite a bit. And of course, once the Gotaras were gone, it would have simply left a prime spot empty for a new tribe of humans to move in.

SoftPrettyBigThing

of course its fine, board mom! Grin

you never know though, the new ones might have been nice happy humans... :P

LivietheLurker

Although considering the many altercations between the humans and the elves over many generations, long before Bearclaw's rule...

SoftPrettyBigThing

yeah, cos though Bearclaw's sire is called Mantricker i havnt read any EQ where is actually meets any humans... :? where does he get his name from?

scarlettdoll

He did.
SPOILER!!!!!













He was killed by a human (tho almost by accident). I don't know which number comics but that story is in one of the BoTC comics and then there are some stories in the Blood of Ten Chiefs novels (tho technically they aren't canon).

MultiMEDEA

Spoiler:
















Not to mention the issue where the human girl thought she was in love with him (BoTC #14). He's met several humans and supposedly earned his tribe name by being a prankster against humans without causing them harm.

Leanan

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krwordgazer

I think Voll could perhaps have died more heroically, fighting to get his "children" to the Palace. That would have been an appropriate ending for him-- coming out of his living death back into full life, and spending that life in one last, glorious fight to the finish. Instead, he was killed almost by accident. But I don't find that accident cheap. I think that, for the sake of the plot as a whole, Voll had to be removed at that point (even as Dumbledore had to be removed from the Harry Potter series). Because the wise parent-figure, having brought the hero to a certain point, must leave the picture or end up upstaging and usurping the hero's role. That it was so inglorious for Voll was, I suppose, because technically he was not the hero, but only a catalyst for the hero. And I think it's part of the realistic feel we get from Elfquest-- not every death is glorious, not every battle heroic.

Voll did at least die finally striving for what he wanted and needed to attain, rather than dying still stuck in his lethargy in Blue Mountain.



I have to disagree - there are already more similarities between Voll and Theoden of Rohan (in Lord of the Rings) than I'm entirely comfortable with - old ruler being kept in stupor by magic, young hero arrives, ruler woken up, remembers the good old days, mounts his trusty horse/hawk and goes out to battle...

The reason Voll's death was what it was is, I suppose, that war is like that. Not all fallen soldiers die in heroic hand-to-hand combat against outstanding odds. Someone must be hit by the first bullet or arrow in the first battle. In any believable reality, the life of a lord is just as cheap as the life of a 'commoner', if not cheaper, because fancy clothes and officer's uniforms tend to make good targets...

As for killing out the whole human tribe near the Holt - remember, it was only when humans arrived at Sorrow's End and Redlance attempted the rather novel approach of trying to reason with them that Cutter learned the humans lived near the Holt on purpose, and the purpose was to kill the demons. Until then, he had thought they lived there because they had no other place to go, or because of some innocent reason of their own.

Willowspring

I kinda wish that Vaya lived and went with the wolfriders with Skot instead of Krim, dont get me wrong i love our kickbutt go-back, but i think that Vaya was one of those kick butt characters that had no reason to die....

ReyesLord

I always got the feeling that Vaya kinda had to die in order to give Kahvi a bit more "humanity" as it were. I'm not that big a Kahvi fan, but showing how she reacts to Vaya's death and then getting the knowledge that she was her daughter really struck a cord with me.

As for Voll, he sort of needed to die because if he had still been with Cutter and the Wolfriders, the rest of the Chosen Eight would have stayed and would have allow them to have gotten to the Palace without facing the trolls (levitating, or in Tyldak's case, flying). Though it might have been interesting to see how the gliders reacted to the Go-Back lifestyle which is so the opposite of their in Blue Mountian.

Suzene

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Reyes Lord

I always got the feeling that Vaya kinda had to die in order to give Kahvi a bit more "humanity" as it were. I'm not that big a Kahvi fan, but showing how she reacts to Vaya's death and then getting the knowledge that she was her daughter really struck a cord with me.



Kahvi's reaction to Vaya's death never really hit me until I reread the original quest for the first time and saw how proud Kahvi was of Vaya's martial ability when Vaya and Clearbook were sparring. Then I had to go off and have a bit of a whimper.

Suzene

Trollbabe

I would have liked Rayek to stick around and share Leetah with Cutter. But that would have been too much domestic drama.