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Kahvi

Kahvi

Go-Back Chieftess

Willowspring

I think that whoever did this one first.... i love you... to um it down... Kahvi is a kick butt character!!!!

dewshine_lover_1

I give her Kudos for being tough..but she can be a tad bit nuts sometimes hehehehe i have a pic to put here..ill edit and add it in when i find it lol

ok found it hahaha here she is!

Willowspring

Quote:
dewshine_lover_1

I give her Kudos for being tough..but she can be a tad bit nuts sometimes hehehehe i have a pic to put here..ill edit and add it in when i find it lol


K!!!

dewshine_lover_1

cool...shes up and ready for gauking hahaha

Willowspring

how bout this one

Bloodwake

I dont have any comics with her. I have Captives of Blue Mountain, and at the end, the Go-Backs save the wolfriders (thats what I'm assuming, I dont have any comics about the Go-Backs either) and I think thats the only comic I have where I see Kahvi with the wolfriders. If I could get any comic, It'd be the Grand Quest volume 4. I really wanna see Kahvi in action 8)

Leanan

Kahvi looks like Xena in that calendar pic...

She may not be the best chief ever, but she's certainly an interesting character... Kahvi doesn't wait for things to happen, she makes things happen...

I really hope she's not dead...

Leanan

Hmm I never would have thought Kahvi could be compared with Nanny Ogg - but you're right, that quote and much of the general Ogg attitude does fit her! Grin

Weirdlet

Young Gytha Ogg with a spear...

I can't decide whether I'm squealing with joy or terror.

crescent1325

i gotta give credit to where credit is due. She has Mad Schemes..and some of the time your like WTF was she thinking? but what matters is her intentions were good. To her anyway....The tribe came first. But she always could admit when she was wrong. Which is another admirable quality.

PCoquelin

That look of her tells sooo much :







Rayek qualified her of "brute-brained chief" but once more he was wrong :

she very much has what it takes to be a real chief,

hidden daughter of the crazy Two-Spear or not !



Now I want to know how Lehrigen killed her !!







"Now... Do you REALLY think a human might kill me ?!..."

krwordgazer

No, Kahvi's no fool, though she does have a tendency to act at times with "more courage than reason." (Cry from Beyond)

But. . . sexy? Do people really find her attractive, with all that muscle? It's been said at times that the elves are a bit androgenous. I have not found it so, except with Kahvi.

Kathleen

Muscles are hot. Especially on chicks. :twisted:

crescent1325

[color=indigo:ae26781be9]i dont think she is that muscley...shes just in shape. Im remembering in KoTBW when she is treeing with cutter and sits up, you see her naked form (from the back), very curvy and womenly and not at all overly ugly muscley...[/color:ae26781be9]

Weirdlet

Kahvi is muscular without being a female body-builder, and that I find very sexy- not to mention that sexy can be mostly about attitude, and Kahvi takes the cake for confidence and charisma and I-know-I'm-right-so-what're-you? that makes people want to follow her.

OnScream

hmm what can I say?? She's so awsome!!

She's a great cheif, although she leaves alot randomly...but usually it's to bring back trophies for the go-backs, so other than that she's still a great cheif. She is the ultamite female and everybody knows it.

ReenBladesong

Kahvi Rocks.Hard.
My name, Reen Bladesong, was the name of my First sue, whos looks were heavily based off kahvi. They had the same colour hair, Both dressed in dark red and grey, both had smouldering eyes.Reen was also a warrior, but she was alot calmer and more thoughtful than Kahvi....okay, nuff rabbiting on about me,me,me(Reen was a parallel of myself)......
Kahvi is undoubtably one of the coolest warriors of Elfquest.The Lehrigen story is so a red herring, she is way to Kick ass to die.....and she bought into the world 2 of the coolest elves ever...Vaya and Venka.

crescent1325

psssssssst...sorry to inform you...but you should really read Elfmom's Forum..

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
















elfmom said she was in spirit form so she is dead

OnScream

awww that's sad...I really liked her

ulmtwen

Quote:
krwordgazer

But. . . sexy? Do people really find her attractive, with all that muscle? It's been said at times that the elves are a bit androgenous. I have not found it so, except with Kahvi.



I'm with you on this, kr. She's pretty much the only elf that I don't think is pretty. The muscles are too much, not to mention the big bushman eyebrows.

I'm just not a fan of Khavi. Spear me if you will!

joselle

Actually Crescent all wendy said was that she's in spirit form now, and that she's very proud about where she ended up and we'll eventually all know the story. She never actually said she was dead. There's still a large faction of us who still need a body. Plus I wouldn't put it past Wendy or Richard to word things carefully so we jump to our own conclusions. Not every elf in spirit form is necessarily dead. (I believe that certain types of astral projection can be considered spirit form).... not that I think that Kahvi's suddenly developed magical ability...but hey, lots and lots of things could have been done to her that don't include death necessarily.

Satiretto

Well, if it should turn out that she's really dead, I hope she went in a blaze of glory and in true Go-Back style ”“ that indomitable chieftess doesn't deserve any less.

Minouche

Quote:
ulmtwen

[quote:382cc94103="krwordgazer"]But. . . sexy? Do people really find her attractive, with all that muscle? It's been said at times that the elves are a bit androgenous. I have not found it so, except with Kahvi.



I'm with you on this, kr. She's pretty much the only elf that I don't think is pretty. The muscles are too much, not to mention the big bushman eyebrows.

I'm just not a fan of Khavi. Spear me if you will![/quote:382cc94103]
Are you kidding? I'd kill for a body like that perfectly toned and feminine at the same time (mine is more like Drub hence my avatar)+ her face (and Vaya's too) has natural beauty. Sure Leetah and the wolfrider girls are gorgeous, but where do they buy their eye shadow and find the time to pluck their eyebrows into quasi non exsistence?

Foxeye

Quote:
ulmtwen

[quote:8f9de8078c="krwordgazer"]But. . . sexy? Do people really find her attractive, with all that muscle? It's been said at times that the elves are a bit androgenous. I have not found it so, except with Kahvi.



I'm with you on this, kr. She's pretty much the only elf that I don't think is pretty. The muscles are too much, not to mention the big bushman eyebrows.
[/quote:8f9de8078c]

I found her to be extremely attractive in book 4-6. She was powerful but lithe. Then she followed the trend of Leetah/Nightfall/etc. in going more hourglass-like, but instead of getting a tinier waist and bigger hips/thighs/boobs, she got a smaller waist and bigger muscles and boobs. (That trend is probably my least favorite of the Wendy evolutions. I loved how supple and natural the elves were initially and I at least a few of them could have stayed that way.)

Nowth

Quote:
KRWordgazer

It's been said at times that the elves are a bit androgenous.


I think what people usually mean by that is that which they find attractive, namely males looking feminine.

Kahvi? Yes, attractive. Outfit, smile, braids. She seemed more natural than even the Wolfriders with all their makeup and poses. I'm thinking of OQ Kahvi, though. Calendar Kahvi seems overly, er, ribbed... beyond being athletic. Not sure, I've never seen muscles up close. *laughs*

crescent1325

yes i must agree...OQ kahvi is pretty. any Kahvi is pretty...but that pinup calender...she was like you know, Female body builder...seriously i was all Surprised when i saw that...EEP

Foxeye

Yeah, that calendear picture was a disservice to her. But she wasn't the only one. Ember and Nightfall were also sent to a 6-week weight lifting program. :P

Quote:
Nowth

[quote:80c85f8b84="KRWordgazer"] It's been said at times that the elves are a bit androgenous.


I think what people usually mean by that is that which they find attractive, namely males looking feminine.
[/quote:80c85f8b84]

Usually, but not always. ^_^ I bring to you, as always, the lovely lush green orcish women of Lineage 2. (warning: link is image heavy)

And boyish girls can be very attractive.

But I suppose it's a matter of how far you go. Males with wide child-bearing hips and a healthy amount of feminine body fat aren't considered attractive, and women with stone-hard muscles and no curves and square jaws no more so.

Brace

She has got a six-pack. That adds to the sex-appeal thing where I am concerned. Ouch, confusion...

Nowth

Muscular, but very human, and very feminine at that...

krwordgazer

Quote:
OnScream

She is the ultamite female and everybody knows it.



There's where I gotta disagree. The "ultimate female" does not mean "acts like a stereotypical male in just about every way, except with breasts." :)

To do her justice, Kahvi did care about Venka, and Vaya too-- but she's too hard (in body and mind), too selfish, and too insensitive in general, to be the ultimate female. That title, for me, would have to go to Nightfall, who manages to be strong, confident, and able to defend herself and others, while still being warm, sensitive, nurturing, and compassionate.

(Hmm, that's funny. Those same qualities also would belong to the "ultimate male" for me, in slightly different ways. Maybe it's not really about gender roles, after all. Wink )


And as for this:

[quote:702279e20e]I'd kill for a body like that perfectly toned and feminine at the same time [/quote:702279e20e]

My husband prefers me to be both softer and rounder than Kahvi, actually. Wink

joselle

Quote:
krwordgazer

And as for this:

[quote:4b71729520]I'd kill for a body like that perfectly toned and feminine at the same time



My husband prefers me to be both softer and rounder than Kahvi, actually. Wink[/quote:4b71729520]

Taller too, I hope! :P

ulmtwen

I'm a fatty-troll body-type too, and I still wouldn't trade it for Khavi's looks. To me, it's just not...right. I like my women (including myself) soft and with a good amount of give. Rock-hard muscles just don't suit the female form. Of course, this is all in my opinion, but it does have evolutional merit. (Even if my homosexuality doesn't.) Females are supposed to carry much more body fat than males (over 10% vs. a puny like 4%, which I think is the absolute minimum) for purposes of procreation. The extra fat cushions the body from blows that could damage a foetus, and provides energy for labour. Even though I would never have kids and would never get a girl pregnant, I still want us to look like a seed would have a nice comfy place to grow in there.

And seriously? Khavi's eyebrows when she's trying to look at Cutter all come-hither-like, just turn me right off. She might as well be Bearclaw, she's so furry.

Minouche

[quote:be8ed68c9e]

My husband prefers me to be both softer and rounder than Kahvi, actually. Wink[/quote:be8ed68c9e]
Mine loved me looking like a whale, when I refused to top the 300lbs he replaced with one who did. Still my health is much better now that I'm down to 200 It's good to please the one you love, but I didn't want to keep on forgoing pleasing me too. By the way I'm refering to Khavi in the books I've never seen the calendar (and w/ all the disparaging coments, I'm not sure I want to)

joselle

well in case you do want to see it:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/imladviel/forum/artpinikahvi.jpg

Gazelle

She's too muscly there.

crescent1325

yeah..its the female Elf version of Arnold. AAAAAAAAAAND her face is to square. like her chin area. she was more round in the face.

Gazelle

*looks closer* It is to! Never noticed that before!

innie

Don't worry about that calendar pic. Nightfall looks like she has had a really bad face job in plastic surgery, and tried to cover it with some really bad make-up.
I agree that it's not nice for a woman to be all body-builder. But what's wrong with a slightly athletic and muscled look? A lot of female sporters have that and they don't look all male.

Gazelle

There's absolutely nothing wrong qith that at all, I was just saying, Kahvi looks too muscular in that pic for me, I don't like the six pack or the mega-thighs!

Alana

I like Kahvi's body in the calendar with the exception of her stomach, which isn't as six-packed in the comics. I like athletically toned bodies though, since mine tends to be like that. My legs are thin, but strong, and so are my arms, but I'm still pretty huggable, I think. Certainly not as hard as her.

Nowth

Quote:
innie

But what's wrong with a slightly athletic and muscled look?


Nothing. But Kahvi looks so gnarly and knobby there. I wouldn't really like that on a man either.

lunakat

look, all this talk of Kahvi being "too muscular" or toned or gnarly is just silly.

She is what she is. She's tough, hard edged. She spent her entire life fighting-- so I imagine that would make her muscular. She's straightforward, plainspoken and doesn't show weakness-- no matter what.

She ain't no blushing violet. But that's her character. To look for her to be something else... or talk as if she should be something else, is to ignore her personality and the role in the story.

She's certainly no icon of sterotypical feminity-- but then, why should she be? That's not what she's about

Nowth

Of course she's tough. It's just that it looks a bit strange to me in that picture.

innie

Actually, isn't it weird that the other female elves aren't more muscled? They are incredibly strong and have a habbit of fighting and hunting to survive. Not really believable with those thin arms Wink

The women of elfquest all look sensual, very female and beautiful but aren't stereo-typical in any way. Because they fight, they hunt, they are brave,... Not really the house-wives types.
And that's better I think. In other comics, female warriors tend to look like she-men.
But I'm glad that Wendy didn't gave all the elves the same posture and body-type. We have über feminine elves, and there are über muscled elves like Kahvi.

Nowth

Well... except the über-muscled elves almost always happen to be male and (to hijack your words) the women of Elfquest almost all conform to ideals not usually associated with hunters and warriors. Else this calendar wouldn't have been such a surprise to some readers! Human diversity and realism aren't what's at work here, no?

krwordgazer

I don't object to Kahvi being all she is. I like Kahvi-- most of the time. Grin

My only disagreement was with calling her "the ultimate female," as if she were the ideal of feminine perfection. I don't think there even should be an ideal of feminine perfection, but if there must be, I object to the idea that females reach their ideal when they have as many qualities as possible that are usually attributed to men.

I still think Nightfall represents the balance between "manly" and "womanly" qualities that could best be considered a true ideal-- for both sexes!

But I was referring only to personality traits. As far as physical beauty is concerned, I agree that a lot of different physical types can be pleasing, to different people. But the majority of people do think that females are nicer-looking when a bit softer than Kahvi. Wink

Minouche

I swear I'm not trying to pick a fight, but does anybody ever wonder why some characteristics such as : courage, (physical and/or moral) strength, fortitude, honesty, tenacity, loyalty, etc.. are generally atributed to males while females see themselves characterized as soft, tender, nurturing, diplomatic (?hypocritical?), pretty, shy, etc... :?: :?: Would it be that, when you don't want to see your rule challenged you make sure that the ones you oppress the most do not think they possess the qualities required to challenge you? After all isn't what was tried with the centuries long spreading of the obviously factice notion that all "blacks" were lazy and dumb? I agree that we must see the qualities in each individual and not concentrate so much on the stereotype even if it's only to be less blind to our own potential.

krwordgazer

Heh, heh. It is fitting that Kahvi should become a "poster child" for the question of what defines feminity. Grin

I think that those qualities Muriel mentioned (soft, tender, nurturing, diplomatic (?hypocritical?), pretty, shy) are what gentlemen used to wish ladies were or would be. Oppression of this nature isn't conscious, it's a way for those in power to keep the comfortable status quo going along in its normal rut.

But I think that loyalty and moral strength are also among those qualities which have, from time to time in society's vicissitudes, been attributed to females as well. After all, for a prolonged period of time in the last century, it was the males who were supposedly unable to control their impulses, and the females who were required to do their utmost to resist-- so moral purity combined with fortitude was seen as a feminine attribute. Not to mention loyalty, which makes an excellent quality in a wife. Wink

In other words, not all the characteristics attributed to females are "weak" virtues.

But Kahvi seems to me to encapsulate not just "male" good qualities like courage and strength, but also many so-called masculine characteristics that are not usually seen as positive ones: insensitivity, self-centeredness, brashness, harshness. Because lately, it seems to me, it's often the males in our society who so often get negatively portrayed.
(Be honest, when was the last time you saw a TV dad who wasn't selfish, slobbish, and stupid?)

Nowth

Quote:
muriel

I swear I'm not trying to pick a fight, but does anybody ever wonder why some characteristics such as : courage, (physical and/or moral) strength, fortitude, honesty, tenacity, loyalty, etc.. are generally atributed to males while females see themselves characterized as soft, tender, nurturing, diplomatic (?hypocritical?), pretty, shy, etc... :?: :?:



When I look at the people around me, I don't really wonder that. Men are bigger, rougher, and stronger on average. Biologically. And these immediately visible traits are easily mistaken for basic nature.

It's as though we lived in a comic book where only the crude, greedy trolls have warts, and ample body hair signifies strength or a particularly "masculine" personality rather than genetic chance.

Sometimes they're positive qualities (valour, chivalry...) and sometimes they're not (brutality, insensitivity...).... either way, within equals wthout.

I believe what we look like shapes us a lot more than we want to admit, not just in a broader gender role sense but within these roles as well... it influences what we're treated as, teaches us what we "are", what we can get away with. Popular culture einforces this, tradition reinforces this...

I don't know if there's a deliberate, oppressive agenda at work now - perhaps it is; it does at times look like that in the works of certain philosophers or [anti]sex[ist] activists, of either & any gender...

...but I'd still say it's all born of plain human self-perpetuating shallowness.

The problem I see isn't that not everyone's the same, that men and women aren't the same (and I don't think they are), but that one cluster of traits is allegedly superior, or that it constitutes a behavioural obligation -- be like this, be like that. Be what you look like. Be a good little comic book character.

Seems just being people isn't so easy when there's such a heterosexual dynamic seeing, demanding, desiring, getting off on complements, opposites, contrasts...

Sometimes there's a plot twist and a weakness turns out to be a strength. Science destroys itself and fairies reign supreme. Right now it doesn't really look like being male was particularly fashionable (like Wordgazer said.) But that too will see a backlash, eventually... just like anything "green" or "hippie" is seeing one.

What doesn't change: people who go too far contradicting their appearance - they will always be seen as clowns.

[quote:daf6b677e5]Would it be that, when you don't want to see your rule challenged you make sure that the ones you oppress the most do not think they possess the qualities required to challenge you? After all isn't what was tried with the centuries long spreading of the obviously factice notion that all "blacks" were lazy and dumb?[/quote:daf6b677e5]

Well, lazy and dumb are bad qualities. None of the "gender" traits you mentioned are bad... There's nothing inferior about being diplomatic, pretty, nurturing. That's all quite laudable, isn't it? I could even see how they'd make women the revered, wise focal point of a society and its direction-givers, and men an auxiliary subspecies of frontline grunts and dirty-work-doers. So I think you can be sexist in any direction you want.

Minouche

I am not saying that the "feminines" qualities are inferior to the "masculine" ones, but that the roles allocation of qualities would make it difficult for women to challenge the power structure, or even feel like doing so in many instances.

[quote]Sometimes they're positive qualities (valour, chivalry...) and sometimes they're not (brutality, insensitivity...)....[quote/]

I have met a few 'brutally insensitive' girls whether their physical appearance gave you a hint of what was inside or not.

[quote]The problem I see isn't that not everyone's the same, that men and women aren't the same (and I don't think they are)[quote/]

Actually what is found mannish in a culture is womanish in another .Our beer adds show men laughing loud, slapping each other on the shoulder. This surprised very much an African student I met as a junior. To him this is awfully girlish : among his people men are dicreet, they never laugh in public: they are more mature than "childish" females.

[quote] but that one cluster of traits is allegedly superior, or that it constitutes a behavioural obligation -- be like this, be like that. Be what you look like. Be a good little comic book character. [quote/]

right on: it's caricatural to demand from all males to be one definite way and all females the opposite/complementary way or to derive a value hierachy from the differences noted. I'm not sure, though, that heterosexuality is what forces this on us rather that the very long habit of a gender dependant power structure. I've met a cross dresser and no real female could have competed with him in how closely he fit the American female icon. If anything his apperance drove deeper in me the notion that the role isn't the person, no matter how hard we try to fit. I have found out that my acceptance of myself and of others has grown at the same time as I was looking into people for their qualities without superimposing my preconception of what they should be. Oh, I'm no saint and I catch myself sometimes with some evidences of prejudice that irk me, but I live better with myself when I don't put others or myself in pre-shaped boxes.

ReenBladesong

To make things simpler for myself, i just pretend that human bodily ....stuff, just dont apply to elves.

Nowth

Quote:
muriel

I am not saying that the "feminines" qualities are inferior to the "masculine" ones, but that the roles allocation of qualities would make it difficult for women to challenge the power structure, or even feel like doing so in many instances.



Okay, understood, and agreed. But do you think the allocation is truly "on purpose"? A conscious, deliberate keeping-'em-down thing?

[quote:51f5b1b75d]I have met a few 'brutally insensitive' girls whether their physical appearance gave you a hint of what was inside or not.[/quote:51f5b1b75d]

Of course; sex isn't destiny, gender roles aren't destiny - or shouldn't be. Still, I feel our beloved stereotypes aren't totally arbitrary. Shallow and harmful, yes, exaggerated, "tyrannified" - but not invented just to maintain a power structure. I'm sure they've been used for that purpose, though... and they are used to attack that structure... how often have you heard that women make better managers, do better in school, hold up better under stress, are better at multitasking, better at this, better at that - because of their "feminine qualities"? And yet it seems sometimes girls are perpetually urged to join the boys club. Augh, it's all such a mess and I really lack the overview to do much more than lash out in confusion.. I haven't exactly studied this; I'm always just "intuiting.")

[quote:51f5b1b75d]among his people men are dicreet, they never laugh in public: they are more mature than "childish" females.[/quote:51f5b1b75d]

Showing affection and happiness in public does seem well within western 'girly' feminine stereotypes as well... men don't usually hug or hold hands.

[quote:51f5b1b75d]I'm not sure, though, that heterosexuality is what forces this on us rather that the very long habit of a gender dependant power structure.[/quote:51f5b1b75d]

I'm not sure either. But I'm using the term "heterosexual" loosely here - merely in the sense of people desiring that in the other that they aren't themselves.

It does seem to me that love, sensuality, romance, sex help cement the differences "suggested" by biology... face, build, voice, genitals... everything seems to be designed to play off the other, to highlight itself in contrast, complementary in looks, in bed, in behaviour, skills -- or just in daily life, as an underlying expectation.

And I think it's easy to let that get in the way of looking at people individually.

[quote:51f5b1b75d]I've met a cross dresser and no real female could have competed with him in how closely he fit the American female icon. If anything his apperance drove deeper in me the notion that the role isn't the person, no matter how hard we try to fit. [/quote:51f5b1b75d]

That's what I meant when I digressed from gender to looks... seems you can now get away with m2f crossdressing - but not if you don't look convincing, or exciting, or glamourous, or otherwise appealing. Liberated as it might be, it's still conforming to an either-or system. We've just replaced chromosomes with looks as the entry qualification.

NightAngel

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/imladviel/forum/artpinikahvi.jpg
Yeah, too much muscled..I don't like that particular picture of Kahvi, with that sixpack, but she is what she is, like Luna mentioned.

Ultimate female?
I guess that's differant, for everyone.
It's just a matter of taste, views on life..

Gazer thinks that Nightfall is sexy, well, the one who made the topic finds Kahvi sexy, and I have to say that I think Kahvi is sexy too.
Yes she has a square face, yes she has furry eyebrows and yes, she can be a pain in the ass...but don't we all?

The rest of the female elves are sooooooo perfect.
They never do anything wrong, and ooh they all look so pretty, they all can join Naomi Cambel on the catwalk.

Kahvi is like us. Kahvi is way more human then we all like to admit.
The reason so less people like her, is because we recognize ourselfves in her.
Self-projection.

You always annoy yourself about peoples doings/habits, while you do the same thing.
(darn, I am telling this on the way I wanna..hope you guys understand me)


Nah, Kahvi is brave, on her way..she's not afraid to speak her thoughts, she is a loner and tough, that's her way to live.
She's strong, and she loved Vaya, on her way.
Who are we to decide for her how to live her life?
I'm glad she's not a decent elf..
But an enfent terrible. Becausse we all need an enfent terrible, to embrace ourselfves..our own enfent terrible, deep down your inner soul.


*cheers for Kahvi*

Nowth


Love that sly I've-got-a-secret look of hers. And although I'm not too crazy about the sixpack, there're enough tee-hee upsa-daisy elves already... :twisted:

krwordgazer

In an attempt to clarify my comments:

I find no fault with Kahvi for being who she is. In disagreeing that she is not the "ultimate female," I am not judging her. Kahvi is Kahvi. She has strengths, she has flaws. She's a great character. What she is not, to me, is a definition of what is best or most desirable in a female.

My problem is that males are celebrated for being male-- often, the more "masculine" they are, the more they are admired. But often, females with female traits are looked down on. For a female to be admired, she often has to be like Kahvi-- to have as many male traits as possible while minimizing the female ones. Why should this be so? Why should women not celebrate being sensitive, nurturing, and caring for others?

My point was that the best of both worlds is to combine strong character traits from both gender roles-- and that this would apply to both males and females. Cutter is tender, thoughtful, calm, and puts others before himself. He is also strong, determined, and self-confident. Nightfall is gentle, nurturing, wise, compassionate-- and also a fighter who will die to protect her loved ones. Both these characters combine both "male" and "female" traits to be a balanced individual.

To me, Nightfall is a more "ultimate" female than Kahvi because Nightfall celebrates her feminine side-- she is a tender, nurturing friend, tribe-mate, mother, and lifemate. Kahvi, as far as I can tell, mostly ignores her feminine side. And other people's needs, except as they relate to her ultimate goal-- the well-being of the Go-Back tribe.

This has nothing to do with whether I find Nightfall vs. Kahvi sexy. They both are, I suppose, in different ways. Frankly, "sexiness" in females isn't something that means a lot to me, anyway. Wink But if I had my choice, I'd choose to look like Nightfall.

Minouche

But you always are clear.

krwordgazer

Thanks, Muriel. (hugs) But some of the responses have made me think maybe I wasn't that clear this time. No matter, though-- I'm enjoying this discussion-- it's fun to go deeply into a character, and what that character means to us in terms of our own values and struggles. Kahvi would be glad she's made us think and talk about female gender roles, I'm sure.

Bravo, Kahvi!

Minouche

She did seem to be one of those people full of questions to the point of being antsy (or is it driven? ) This is one of the things I appreciate in Wendy's characters: they aren't mere sketches of personality: they have depth, soul, and substance.

NightAngel

Quote:
muriel

But you always are clear.



Okay...something not really nice comes up in my mind, but I need to get it off my chest: Bootlicker...


Quote:
krwordgazer

Thanks, Muriel. (hugs) But some of the responses have made me think maybe I wasn't that clear this time.


Some?
I was the only one who responded...;)

Enfin, you were clear alright, I only gave a reaction about what you said earlier:
"My only disagreement was with calling her "the ultimate female," as if she were the ideal of feminine perfection."
That's your interpretation about Kahvi.


Quote:
krwordgazer

Kahvi would be glad she's made us think and talk about female gender roles, I'm sure.



I bet she is :D

Minouche

Quote:
NightAngel

[quote:f7bfedf0ff="muriel"]But you always are clear.



Okay...something not really nice comes up in my mind, but I need to get it off my chest: Bootlicker... [/quote:f7bfedf0ff]

It's always nice to be appreciated, isn't it? Some times of the month I avoid to pass on my moods on the forum

krwordgazer

Actually, Night Angel, yours wasn't the only response that made me think I hadn't been clear. There was Lunakat's, too. :)

And you're right-- that is my interpretation of Kahvi. I never meant it as anything else. If she's your ideal of feminine perfection, I have no objection to that. I've given the reasons why she's not mine.

But please, no name calling here, ok? Muriel was giving me a nice compliment-- why ruin it?

If you want to talk about this more in private, please PM me, ok? I'd hate to think I had done anything to offend you. (hugs)

NightAngel

Hm, okay, maybe I was too hot-tempered, sorry for that ;)

I didn't feel offended by the way.

And I also don't have pms-troubles Muriel;)

Foxeye

Quote:
muriel

[quote:1f44063f68="krwordgazer"]Kahvi would be glad she's made us think and talk about female gender roles, I'm sure.



I bet she is :D[/quote:1f44063f68]

I'm going to take my turn being contrary and say that I disagree. Kahvi seems like the sort who would say "Why the heck do you even need to talk about that? What are these 'roles' you are so concerned with, and why do the dangly bits matter in any way? Be who you are, whatever that is, and stop talking about it." (I don't think she's much for introspection or socio-political philosophy. Grin)

krwordgazer

Good point, Foxeye. :) And you know, I would agree with you, except that apparently Kahvi had this odd tendency to favor the females in her tribe. The way I heard it, in the Recognition Summer Special they talked about this quest/hunt ritual that she would only allow the best female warriors to participate in.

My guess is that she had unresolved issues with her father that caused her to pay attention to "the dangly bits." As if she wanted to prove something, somehow. . .

But maybe I'm wrong, and she had some other reason for her apparent discrimination against the males in her tribe. In any case, I think that if she knew all the trouble we humans have had with these issues, I think she'd be all for us doing whatever we needed to do to resolve them. Wink

Foxeye

Y'know, you have a point...she does seem to show respect towards other women a LOT more often than she does males. It seems so odd to think of any elf as having gender-bias, though...even a small one.

It's interesting...someone (I think it was wingthing) commented how more wolfrider women than wolfrider men bite the dust. But when it comes to the wise, powerful elves...almost none of the men made it. There are three "queens" as it were - Savah, Timmain, and Winnowill - but no "kings" left. Voll gone. Door gone crazy and then gone. We have Aurek/Egg still, thank goodness, but he's been severely marginalized and we know almost nothing about him. Surge had "king" potential, but he was crazy, cranky man instead.

The world of two moons is not nice to tall men! Almost makes me afraid for poor Sunstream now that he's tall and on his way to becoming the equal of Savah for magic and wisdom.

nomad-human

There is no femine ideal , there is no male ideal, there is only what's right for you! If your mate has an ideal that they like in the opposite sex, good for them, if it's not your ideal for you, too bad for them!

As for why only male traits are consdidered good, I disagree, many femine traits are considered good as well. But I don't think of them in those terms. It's good to be proactive, to be able to defend yourself and your loved ones. It's good to be able to view an argument or an issue from both sides. It's good to seek compromise first and if that doesn't work to stand by your guns and refuse to give when someone is trying to take advatage of you. These aren't male or female in my eyes, they are good and bad. Gender matters only if you let it, it's such an unimportant thing, after all we are talking about biological PLUMBING!!! How you pee and where you stand in the reproduction game.

To me Khavi is a wonderful example of the feminine ideal, as is Nightfall, as is Clearbrook, as is Krim, as is Dewshine. When you think about it we have slightly chubby female elves (Shen Shen), anorexic looking female elves (Dewshine), and athletic, muscular looking female elves (Khavi). The ideal is whoever you want it to be, just don't be too surprised if someone else agrees or disagrees with you. Beauty, as in most things, is in the eye of the beholder.

As for me I really like Khavi, her tribe came first, before her own needs and before the needs of other groups. Which when you think of modern politics is what we ask of our leaders. To put us first before ALL else, Khavi did that for the Go-Backs. Which is a good thing because no one else was going to, everyone else was either too busy trying to kill them or too busy putting them down for being less when in actuality all they are is different.

Khavi raised both Vaya and Venka into adulthood and both were strong, capable women who I admire. They both understood the value of sacrificing themselves for others, for fighting the good fight and being what they will be. I think many people forget that, Khavi was a damn good mother, but people often look to anyone else they can find to explain how her kids came out besides [i:677b5d4022]her[/i:677b5d4022]. Well Khavi raised them, and she didn't go wandering off again till Venka was a grown woman. This tells me all I need to know. Khavi taught her daughters the one lesson that all parents should teach their children..."Be a better person than I was, because I was by no means perfect."

*Lifts glass*

Here's to Khavi...much maligned...and much loved.

*Drains her glass*

krwordgazer

You make very good points, Nomad. Of course, Kahvi's good traits are to be admired and valued, whatever her gender. :)

Still, I think she took the idea of putting her tribe first, a bit too far. She was willing to do whatever it took to get a child by Cutter, for the good of her tribe-- no matter what it might do to him. Kahvi's goals, Kahvi's plans, followed through come what may, no matter who gets hurt.

Sounds a little like . . . Rayek.

I think that's why those two ultimately couldn't get along. In this, they're too much alike.

So here's the question, for the sake of discussion: If Kahvi had been in Rayek's position, and for the good of her tribe had been able to wipe out all that came before, would she have done it? Or does she have more fundamental ethical principles than he did at that time?

What do people think?

Allura

Good points. I'll have to agree with you.

However, if Khavi were in Rayek's place, I think she would try to wipe out 'all that came before' but as she doesn't have the prejudices that Rayek did about who was a true elf or not, I have a feeling she'd make sure everyone was in the palace when she did it... even if she had to knock everyone unconcious and drag them inside to do it.

And I think she'd have fun doing it to.


Although whether she'd take the Trolls or not is another story.

But this is just my take on this. How about everyone else?

lunakat

[quote:d1d75e1b7a="krwordgazer"]

My problem is that males are celebrated for being male-- often, the more "masculine" they are, the more they are admired. But often, females with female traits are looked down on. For a female to be admired, she often has to be like Kahvi-- to have as many male traits as possible while minimizing the female ones. Why should this be so? Why should women not celebrate being sensitive, nurturing, and caring for others?
[/quote:d1d75e1b7a]

It's interesting that you say this... because it seems to me that Kahvi is less admired and more criticized in general (by us readers at least) than any other female character in Elfquest (short of Winnowil.)

I mean, really... when has Nightfall, Leetah, Clearbrook or Shen Shen ever stirred up this much controversy?

Minouche

Criticized yes, looked down upon no way, and I believe that 's the point on which Kwordgazer was drawing our attention. Women cannot win: if they fit the model thought appropriate by the last 5000 generations of males, they aren't criticized, but the praise they get is tinged with the "it's a mere female" demeaning attitude. If they don't fit the pattern and exhibit qualities thought to be more " male" (although there isn't such a thing as a male or female quality as Nomad remarked ) they inspire a grudging respect while they are buried under criticism. As far as men are concerned, I tend to think they aren't that much better served. Those who fit the "norm" are respected (as Kwordgazer said) but are forever trapped in their role. Those who stray from the approved exclusive male pattern aren't even considered part of human kind. Actually, what seems to be the most critisized quality in a woman or a man, is independant thinking and faithfulness to oneself.

krwordgazer

Good point, Muriel. I think you explained what I was trying to say very well. I mean, no one really criticizes Rainsong, but is she really admired?

But I think the main reason Kahvi is so criticized is the same reason Rayek is criticized-- because she has a lot of faults. And if positive traits are in reality neither masculine nor feminine, neither are negative ones.

Kahvi engineered the attempted theft of the Little Palace; she wanted to abduct Cutter's cocoon; she permitted her Go-Back warriors in the First War for the Palace to find amusement by hacking trolls to pieces, not content with simply putting them to death. In other words, she exhibits a lot of negative behaviors that her admirable courage and strength just don't make up for.

The same can be said for Rayek-- but the difference, for me, is that Rayek has shown a depth of real remorse that I have never seen in Kahvi.

Minouche

those criticisms, I have no argument with. It is the gender based ones that irk me.

nomad-human

For me as to the first question, I do not believe that Khavi would have wiped out all the elves. For two reasons really, the first being that she doesn't seem to have the hang ups about what makes an elf an elf as Reyak does. The second being that it as all about the palace for her and her tribe, they wanted control of it, they wanted to wrest it from the trolls, nothting there ever spoke to me of the genocidal pull that Reyak seemed to have fallen into.

As far as letting her warriors hack trolls into pieces for fun, that's only seen with Guttlegraw, and he had just killed Khavi's daughter Vaya, and was directly responsible for so many Go-Back deaths. I think in light of that it makes their rather bloodthirsty actions more understandable, not right of course but more understandable. Speaking as a former marine, it's not easy to turn off the adrenaline after it's been let loose.

One thing I find remarkable about debates on Khavi is comparing them to debates on Winnowill or Reyak. The majority of people on this forum are of the mindset that both Reyak and Winnowill are forgivable people (I wholeheartedly disagree on the subject of Winnie, but I think everyone here already knows that), but that Khavi is not. When comparing her actions to those of Winnie I find no comparison. They aren't in the same league, ballpark, hell they aren't even in the same sport folks. As for comparing her to Reyak, well sorry, I find genocide bone achingly bad, but he changed, so that while he's never going to be my fave I can live with him as a character. What in heaven's name did she do that was so terrible in comparison to all that?!?

It's just interesting to me that most people seem to have sympathy for the devil (Winnie), sympathy for the male anti-hero (Reyak), but little to none for the female anti-hero (Khavi). I have my own opinions why, but they are for another time.

I think that Khavi does feel remorse for her actions, but I think that she tries too hard, if you know what I mean. Her drive to better life for the Go-Backs is like blinders. In a way she is almost exactly like Reyak (minus the slide into genocidal meglomania). Instead of him being her shadow or her his, it's like they're the male and female versions of each other.

krwordgazer

I agree that Kahvi is just not in Winnowill's league at all. And I have never forgiven Winnowill-- again, because she has never shown remorse. I think for me that is the prerequisite for forgiveness. But I give Winnowill one thing-- if she's truly mad, she's not fully responsible for her actions.

If Kahvi wouldn't consider genocide because she just wouldn't, I can accept that. But I've always wondered if the difference wasn't simply that Kahvi never had the [i:5f865cae33]power[/i:5f865cae33] to do what Rayek did. If she'd had the kind of magic he has, how would she have used it? I wonder.

nomad-human

I envision a wall, shaped of stone, all around the palace. I envision a door tht only allows elves and those they choose to let in. Yep, big, tall and thick walls. I always get the image of her as a rockshaper, if she had any magic that is. And who knows...maybe she does.

Part of what I think is the psychological issue with Khavi and the Go-Backs is that they were in a war zone for FAR too long. When you think about it, they almost all seem to exhibit classic symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder. It seems to me that for all we are different from our elves, the more we are the same...

*Wanders off thinking deep thoughts...*

Nowth

That's a strange question because the Go-Backs seem to need constant struggle to define themselves, ideally for something big and shiny that'll remind them they're elves. Since Kahvi knows this better than anyone I can't imagine her using a lot of magic; she seems more concerned with keeping the Go-Backs going than with ever arriving anywhere. Would be funny though if it turned out that she's more powerful than Timmain, only she doesn't bother using it. Not likely considering how Aurek's ovomancy reduced the war chieftess to an upset teenager.

innie

[quote:52027ccf41="nomad-human"]Beauty, as in most things, is in the eye of the beholder.
[/quote:52027ccf41]

I'd say: Pretty is in the eye of the beholder.
Beauty is in the soul.

About Kahvi being admired by men because of her male qualities: in my experience, guys like the girly girls, they don't like the girls that could compete with them.

krwordgazer

I think it's more the girls who admire Kahvi for her "male" qualities.


My question about Kahvi and magic wasn't about Kahvi having magic per se-- it was about her character, and whether she'd be able to responsibly handle the kind of power that magic would give her. I know Go-Backs don't approve of magic, but supposing they did? Would Kahvi use her magic ruthlessly for the furtherance of the Go-Back tribe, at the expense of everyone else? She seems to use every other resource at her disposal in that way.

Oh, and about Nomad-Human's comment:

[quote:a4d2f46952="nomad-human"]As far as letting her warriors hack trolls into pieces for fun, that's only seen with Guttlegraw, and he had just killed Khavi's daughter Vaya, and was directly responsible for so many Go-Back deaths. I think in light of that it makes their rather bloodthirsty actions more understandable, not right of course but more understandable. Speaking as a former marine, it's not easy to turn off the adrenaline after it's been let loose. [/quote:a4d2f46952]

I agree about the adrenaline-- but the scene I was actually thinking about was at the very beginning of the war, when the Wolfriders and Go-Backs first entered the tunnels and met their first trolls. The text says some of the Wolfriders were shocked by the brutality of the way the Go-Backs attacked-- and Kahvi said something along the lines of "Let them have their fun."

Don't get me wrong, I have never really disliked Kahvi-- but I do find her quite ruthless and Machiavellian, most of the time.

As for this:

[quote:a4d2f46952="nomad-human"]It's just interesting to me that most people seem to have sympathy for the devil (Winnie), sympathy for the male anti-hero (Reyak), but little to none for the female anti-hero (Khavi). I have my own opinions why, but they are for another time. [/quote:a4d2f46952]

Seems to me like a lot of people also have little to no sympathy for the other character who seems to me to be the male equivalent of Kahvi -- Bearclaw.

lunakat

[quote:32efad23eb="krwordgazer"]The same can be said for Rayek-- but the difference, for me, is that Rayek has shown a depth of real remorse that I have never seen in Kahvi.[/quote:32efad23eb]
Honestly, Kahvi has some negative personality traits, it's true. But she's never done anything as bad as what Rayek has done. Rayek, for the sake of ego, exiled an entire race of elves, destroying their home, their tribe and everything they'd worked for. He stole Cutter's family (kidnapping [i:32efad23eb]is[/i:32efad23eb] a crime!)-- and he did so with the intent to commit genocide. Genocide. To wipe out the lives of every elf who did not, in his opinion, deserve to "stand [with] him and greet the high ones."

So, um... if Rayek had not shown remorse-- he would have been utterly evil. Only his guilt redeemed him in any way. Kahvi never ever went that far-- and really never did anything so terrible that she would need to show that level of remorse.

[quote:32efad23eb]Kahvi engineered the attempted theft of the Little Palace; she wanted to abduct Cutter's cocoon; she permitted her Go-Back warriors in the First War for the Palace to find amusement by hacking trolls to pieces, not content with simply putting them to death. In other words, she exhibits a lot of negative behaviors that her admirable courage and strength just don't make up for. [/quote:32efad23eb]
Absolutely. But her motivations for each action were very understandable. She wanted to steal the palace back in order to raise the Go Back's spirits. She didn't do it for greed or self-aggrandizement. It was for her people.

In the first war... she was a warrior leading warriors. What I understood from that scene the very first time I read it (at age 8) was this:
The Go Backs and the Wolfriders came from different worlds. For the Go Backs, war was a daily reality-- they lived and breathed this violence. Even the youngsters were raised to think in terms of it.

And here was Kahvi, leading her people into battle. They were walking into a "kill or be killed" situation. We saw what fear did to Skywise (nearly got him killed)-- and we saw the kind of courage that was expected and required of Vaya. Kahvi did encourage them to be ruthless, to stir up bloodthirst, to have no mercy for their enemy. But in part, I got the impression that she saw it as preparation for the larger fight to come.

I'm not saying that was the right way to think-- but in terms of the world they lived in, I think it made sense. And Kahvi, as an individual, wasn't responsible for that per se-- it was the Go Back way of thinking in general.

[quote:32efad23eb]My question about Kahvi and magic wasn't about Kahvi having magic per se-- it was about her character, and whether she'd be able to responsibly handle the kind of power that magic would give her. I know Go-Backs don't approve of magic, but supposing they did? Would Kahvi use her magic ruthlessly for the furtherance of the Go-Back tribe, at the expense of everyone else? She seems to use every other resource at her disposal in that way. [/quote:32efad23eb]
I think Kahvi would do no more and no less than what she felt was necessary for her tribe to survive. I don't think the Go Backs were about glory-- and they did seem willing to share their lodge, their lifestyle and the Palace with both Rayek and the Wolfriders. But if threatened? Sure.


[quote:32efad23eb]I agree about the adrenaline-- but the scene I was actually thinking about was at the very beginning of the war, when the Wolfriders and Go-Backs first entered the tunnels and met their first trolls. The text says some of the Wolfriders were shocked by the brutality of the way the Go-Backs attacked-- and Kahvi said something along the lines of "Let them have their fun."

Don't get me wrong, I have never really disliked Kahvi-- but I do find her quite ruthless and Machiavellian, most of the time. [/quote:32efad23eb]
I think she was being ruthless. She was trying to get their adrenaline pumping. Her people saw war as a lifestyle. It was what they did. And they were callous about it-- to an extent that shocked the Wolfriders.

[quote:32efad23eb]
nomad-human wrote:
It's just interesting to me that most people seem to have sympathy for the devil (Winnie), sympathy for the male anti-hero (Reyak), but little to none for the female anti-hero (Khavi). I have my own opinions why, but they are for another time.

Seems to me like a lot of people also have little to no sympathy for the other character who seems to me to be the male equivalent of Kahvi -- Bearclaw.[/quote:32efad23eb]

Um.. I have sympathy for Bearclaw! Wink

I think that Nomad was making a particular point here. I'm going to just be blunt about it:

Lots of people like to feel sorry for Rayek for a number of reasons. First of all, he's handsome and angsty. Girls like that. Secondly... hmm. I'm thinking... Okay. Secondly, he seems to be sensitive. As testy and rude and conceited as he sometimes behaves on the outside, we've seen him cry.

Winnowil? Well, Rayek loves her... and she's utterly gorgeous. And she's intriguing.

What's different about Kahvi? Kahvi never shows a soft underbelly. If she did, we'd all probably like her more and find lots of sympathy for her. But she's tough-- through and through. I think that makes a lot of people edgy. Nightfall, at least, shows a great deal of tenderness-- although she's strong and tough as well. She's also got that vulnerable side. A lot of people would like Kahvi to be vulnerable-- but she isn't. Not in that way at least. THAT, I think, is why she's criticized.

nomad-human

Thank you lovey! Sometimes I think the sympathy for Reyak v. Khavi makes me think of the lack of sympathy for Two-Edge. He isn't pretty...so screw 'im. Sometimes I get that same feeling about the similar lack of sympathy for Khavi.

I guess sometimes I wish that I could scream from the rafters "Who cares if he's pretty and tortured!?!?! Who cares if she's beautiful and haunted!?!?! Doesn't anyone care about their actions?!?!

But in the end I find myself bitterly dissapointed and my feelings on the subject can never be expressed with the eloquency that they have in my mind. But I'm a gonna try...and I'm a gonna ramble...so forgive me...

I get upset when people sweep the actions of a certain attractive desert rogue under the rug mostly because of my background. My family saw and felt on their skin the cold hard results of genocide. The sickness of the mind that causes it. How even though a group of people bleed, live, dream, love with the vividness that makes them be considered alive...someone can still see them as nothing. The kind of nothig that it doesn't matter if they take their rights away, herd them into camps, perform the type of medical experiments that only a bad seed of a person can come up with, that these things can be done to them. They can have numbers tattooed down their arms so that it's even easier to take away the vital humaness of them...after all it's only 47633 begging you not to burn them alive...not a REAL person...

THAT'S what genocide is, that's what the type of sick minds that believe that kind of, I lack the words to describe it...well that's how they behave when given enough power. Reyak never got the chance to become that, thanks to Leetah, Ekuar and Venka. THAT'S what Winnie wants. Winnie isn't sorry, so I wish she'd just be gone. Reyak realized how sick he had become, and excepts the punishment he earned with honor and dignity. That alone has made me respect him, not love him, not like him terribly much...but respect him.

Khavi is tough, tunnel visioned and a warrior amoung warriors. She leads a tribe in the middle of a war zone, with NO safe place to go. You kill or you die, no other options even pretend to exist. You kill or the trolls EAT you. The Wolfriders provoked the same shocked and slightly sickened response from the Sunfolk. It's called culture shock. You change to suit your environment or you die...it's nature. I don't think that makes Khavi bad.

What makes Khavi flawed is her lack of an ability to listen to others. It's her way or the highway...and that isn't good. Khavi could be a GREAT chief, but untill she learns to share some of her power and listen to someone she will only be a good one. Cutter can lead so many different types of people because he can listen to others, Khavi is only a good chief for the Go-Backs because of this lack in her. I think Khavi has made some boneheaded moves, but so have other elves (Skywise comes to mind). I don't see anything she has ever done as evil, not like Winnie and Reyak. In fact I see Bearclaw in very much the same light, he made some STUPID moves in his time...but not evil ones.

I have more to say...but I can't, this rant has exhausted me enough. This conversation always ends up in the same place and every time it goes there. Well suffice it to say that it gets...oh screw it...it get's to a place where we are all fighting and the thread either gets locked or it petters out because we can't see each other's side. G-d knows I, without fail, end up sounding like a shrill, frigid b*tch.

krwordgazer

[quote:e3743b092e="nomad-human"]Thank you lovey! Sometimes I think the sympathy for Reyak v. Khavi makes me think of the lack of sympathy for Two-Edge. He isn't pretty...so screw 'im. Sometimes I get that same feeling about the similar lack of sympathy for Khavi.

I guess sometimes I wish that I could scream from the rafters "Who cares if he's pretty and tortured!?!?! Who cares if she's beautiful and haunted!?!?! Doesn't anyone care about their actions?!?! [/quote:e3743b092e]

Well, I think you've probably gotten familiar enough with the way I think that you'll be willing to admit I'm [i:e3743b092e]not [/i:e3743b092e]one of those squealing fan-girls who loves a character just because he's "pretty and tortured." What I was trying to do in this discussion, Nomad and Lunakat, is not to rehash the same old ground, but to look at it from an entirely different angle: not what the characters [i:e3743b092e]did[/i:e3743b092e], but what they would be [i:e3743b092e]capable [/i:e3743b092e]of.

[quote:e3743b092e="lunakat"]Absolutely. But her motivations for each action were very understandable. She wanted to steal the palace back in order to raise the Go Back's spirits. She didn't do it for greed or self-aggrandizement. It was for her people. [/quote:e3743b092e]

Rayek would argue that his motivations were not less noble than Kahvi's. Her goal was to raise up her people; his goal was to raise up the entire elfin race. Granted, he had some very wrong thinking about certain kinds of elves that led him into terrible misdeeds. But no, I don't think it is motive, in and of itself, that sets the two of them apart, Kahvi as "good guy" and Rayek as "bad guy." I agree that their actions set them apart that way-- Rayek has indeed done much huger misdeeds than Kahvi ever dreamed of. But I think that's largely because nothing Rayek does is ever going to be small. When he does good, he's going to do something enormously heroic. When he does wrong, he's going to do something enormously wrong.


[quote:e3743b092e="lunakat"]So, um... if Rayek had not shown remorse-- he would have been utterly evil. Only his guilt redeemed him in any way. Kahvi never ever went that far-- and really never did anything so terrible that she would need to show that level of remorse. [/quote:e3743b092e]

Well, but for me the rub is that Kahvi has never shown [i:e3743b092e]any [/i:e3743b092e]level of remorse for [i:e3743b092e]anything[/i:e3743b092e] she's done. And it's Rayek's remorse that redeems him.

As for not having sympathy for her because she has no softer side-- well, you're right. :) Sympathy being a soft emotion, it's hard to find sympathy for someone who appears to need and want none. But that doesn't mean I condemn Kahvi, or that I excuse Rayek. I'm trying to look at both of them as they are-- and what I'm trying to compare is not their outward actions, but their hearts. It certainly has nothing to do, for me, with what either of them [i:e3743b092e]looks[/i:e3743b092e] like.

My question is, would you say that Kahvi is at heart a more moral being than Rayek? She has never been tested as he was tested, has never had the opportunity or the means to do anything as bad as Rayek has done. So is the fact that she has never done anything that bad due to her moral character, or simply to the luck of the draw? Or to something else-- say, just more down-to-earth common sense than Rayek has ever had?

There is one thing that makes me say-- yes, Kahvi has more moral character than Rayek did (until he learned his lesson, that is). When the War for the Little Palace started, and Kahvi was released from wrapstuff, she was appalled that the other Go-Backs, led by Zey, were willing to kill other elves to get their goal of the Little Palace. She wanted her tribe raised up, but to her, killing the Sun Folk was too high a price. So I would say that yes, after her fashion she made different choices than Rayek-- in her own sphere.

But Kahvi is still in many ways a ruthless character for whom the ends justify the means. She wouldn't do what Rayek did-- she wouldn't try to wipe out other elves by changing the past-- but that's also partly because she is too down-to-earth to ever delude herself the way Rayek did, in the chasing of his dream. But I think they both do still have a certain bent towards "my goals accomplished, no matter who gets hurt." Kahvi is lesser in degree than Rayek, but she is no saint.

However, another consideration on Kahvi's behalf is that she deserves more leniency [i:e3743b092e]because[/i:e3743b092e] she has neither Rayek's sensitivity nor his imagination. Would she be less ruthless if she could imagine better how another elf or elves might be feeling? In a way, Rayek's imagination and sensitivity make him [i:e3743b092e]more [/i:e3743b092e]culpable, because he had the capability of placing himself in Cutter's place-- in other words, he should have known better.

So in summary, I don't want to go into the old face-off of "you just don't understand Rayek," on the one hand and "you only like Rayek because he's pretty and tortured" on the other. I think the issues can be looked at more deeply, and less passionately than that.

However, I don't have the Holocaust as part of my personal family history. So I completely understand that Nomad is not able to disengage her emotions from this in the same way I can. (hugs Nomad)

Anyway, I hope we can continue the discussion-- but I don't want to fight over this again, either. So if you want to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, and end it there-- I'll end it there. :)

nomad-human

'Gazer, I don't think you are a "screaming fangirl" for that particular portion of the rant I was speaking to different audience. We all know that you're not the screaming fangirl type (however I have my bets that you at least once in high school screamed fangirl-esque. I know I did Grin ).

For me, you are right...I can't disengage my emotions on the genocide issue. And I would never want to, I truly believe that it SHOULD sicken people. It's an evil so huge we shouldn't be able to sympathize with it. I hope I would feel the same way even if a large chunk of my family hadn't died in the Holocaust. At least I hope so anyway...

There was a lot in there that I've wanted to say for the last 2 years...and didn't. I didn't want to be the stereotypical Jew waving around the Holocaust for shock value. But, well it had to be said. When I hear people defend Reyak's genocidal plans, it makes me think of the folks that tell me that either the Holocaust didn't happen and it's a Jewish conspiracy, or that it wasn't really Germany's fault. They were starving, so it was ok.

I try to keep a lid on it, but after 2 years of keeping it in, it had to come out, or I was going to explode. Sorry if it seemed personal against you, it wasn't.

As for Khavi, I would really be interested in seeing if anyone else believes that Khavi and tribe suffer from PTSD. Also, does anyone have a theory about which type of magic Khavi's personality suits? I still say rockshaper. There's something about her need to protect and defend that speaks to rockshaping for me.

Nowth

I just can't think of him as a villain... I think it's because for all his intelligence and his hard-earned powers he was so blind to his own transparent conceit, so needy even while strutting about in his Master Of The Universe outfit. Palace, I mean. "I pity you" was the most pitiful thing he ever said. He's always been on the outside - he's never experienced what most of the others have, and he doesn't understand just what he's doing to them by depriving them of it. I can relate to that.

He never seemed to be depicted as "evil" until well after KOTBW in Nightfall's dream - also starring Kahvi, for what it's worth... (to my great surprise... I knew she was meant to be ruthless, but not a monster...)

The thing about Rayek is that he had to maintain, for his own good, an image of himself as the big saviour. Deliberately committing genocide was not compatible with this, nor, I think, with his nature, un-saintly though it may be. The only way he could pursue his grand rescue was by relegating its horrible ramifications to the realm of the abstract, of time and space, of a "clean" never-having-existed-in-the-first-place. "It's not killing! They'll just never have been born. And I'll be preventing a lot of suffering, too!"

It's his mindset, I suppose. Other people aren't exactly foremost in his mind. Not because he hates them or anything, though he sure isn't a nice person... as a habitual outsider he's just not thinking in terms of relationships and responsibilities and loyalty as much as most elves. Still, he couldn't do it while they were watching - reminding him that they were quite real, that there was more to his plan than saving elves.

So, yes -- I suppose he's troubled - and in the end, when he got his nose rubbed in what he was about to do, he didn't actually do it...

(Kureel on the other hand had a really "low" personality. Nobody likes him or asks if he was "misunderstood"...)

krwordgazer

Thank you, Nowth. :) I agree that for Rayek, wiping people out of existence was relegated to an abstract. If it were a matter of Earth-style genocide-- of lining people up against the wall and shooting them, for instance-- he'd have been horrified. I still maintain that he was deluding himself, that he was focused on his vision being fulfilled and hadn't truly thought through the reality of what he was doing-- and that confronted with it (as you say), in the form of the Wolfriders' faces, he had to change his mind. I also submit that if Venka had had any doubt that he [i:e579684abb]would [/i:e579684abb]change his mind once his eyes had been opened, she would not have let him make the choice for himself. How could she have?

As she said in Dreamtime "Meeting you has resolved (my inner conflicts)." In other words, once she met him, she realized her father was not the monster she'd assumed he was.

As for Nightfall's dream in [i:e579684abb]Dreamtime[/i:e579684abb], in which everyone who threatens the Wolfriders is like a monster-- that was Nightfall's perspective, not necessarily that of the authors. Nightfall has always been ferociously protective. The characters as presented through the course of the series are much more three-dimensional than in Nightfall's dream.

Nomad-Human, it's not that genocide doesn't sicken me. Of course it does! But Rayek, when it came right down to it, [i:e579684abb]didn't [/i:e579684abb]commit genocide, once he truly understood that that was what he was contemplating.

Nowth

True... it was a dream... but there was a bit of a lesson on the nature of "badness" attached, so it seemed like more.

Been thinking some more...

I don't think it would've shocked me very much had Cutter, Kahvi or somebody killed Rayek to stop him. (Abodean standards here, not mine.) The comic just didn't make me want to do it myself. And I'm not sure it tried to have that effect. There is an irreality to Rayek's crimes somehow, not like with Shuna's dad who's an arghh go away leave us alone kind of nasty. And he's probably not even half as aware of himself as Rayek. Just acting out his miserable programming.

I suppose... maybe I just feel sorry for everyone who screws up so badly without ever meaning to be "evil". If you never felt that you were the one who was wronged - you start to get used to thinking of yourself as in constant need of forgiveness and in constant danger of punishment. Naturally I could never identify with Cutter or Nightfall or other impeccable characters. So it is for my own sake that mistakes have to be forgivable and perhaps this leads to moral relativism disguised as compassion. I don't know.

*blah*... hm. Interesting.

lunakat

[quote:6af52450f6="krwordgazer"]Thank you, Nowth. :) I agree that for Rayek, wiping people out of existence was relegated to an abstract. If it were a matter of Earth-style genocide-- of lining people up against the wall and shooting them, for instance-- he'd have been horrified. I still maintain that he was deluding himself, that he was focused on his vision being fulfilled and hadn't truly thought through the reality of what he was doing-- and that confronted with it (as you say), in the form of the Wolfriders' faces, he had to change his mind.[/quote:6af52450f6]
It's interesting that you and Nomad should mention the holocaust... I'm thinking about it now in relation to Rayek, to Winnowil and to your comments regarding him. Generally, i agree. If Rayek had chosen to confront the reality of what he was about to do... he would have been horrified. But he did, until the very last possibly moment (and after he had done great harm) choose to blind himself to that reality. Why?

I do not think that Rayek is a Hitler-esque character. That character would, rather, be Winnowil. Rayek and Winnowil do, in fact, speak of "racial purity" as being one of their goals. Winnowil, like Hitler, had concieved of a "master race" of sorts... elves who were pure in blood and similar in a sense to the High Ones. In order to fulfill this dream, she was eager and willing to wipe out the "degenerates."

Rayek was not as overt as Winnie... but he did speak of those who were deserving vs. not deserving. He did consider himself above the Wolfriders, because of his "pure" blood...above the Sun Folk because of his physical strength... and above the Go Backs because of his use of magic.

Ultimately, he was seduced by Winnowil and swayed by her vision. He embraced her goals as his own. And I think that there is a lesson in that.

The most interesting thing to me about the Holocaust wasn't that a madman took control of the country and attempted to commit genocide. It was the fact that a nation of men and women went along with and supported him. Hiter could not have accomplished anything alone. The Nazi's to rise to power required the participation and support of the German people... average people like you and me. People who were willing to blind themselves to the truth and look the other way.

What this tells me is that there is something within all of us... something deep in human nature that would allow any of us to commit atrocities. Perhaps the only way to avoid that is to remain conscious and wary of this potential.

Rayek is culpable... he is culpable as a follower. He is culpable for allowing himself to be blinded, for choosing to embrace Winnowil's schemes.

[quote:6af52450f6]Nomad-Human, it's not that genocide doesn't sicken me. Of course it does! But Rayek, when it came right down to it, [i:6af52450f6]didn't [/i:6af52450f6]commit genocide, once he truly understood that that was what he was contemplating.[/quote:6af52450f6]
Yes he did. He understood. And he was willing to do it anyway. Because, in his mind, his vision was superior... these lives that he was wiping out should never have been born. It was his right to make the choice for others.

I guess you could say... Rayek was on a crusade. For him (at least briefly) the ends justified the means... and that is always a dangerous attitude. Because ethics and morality, at that point, right vs. wrong... are so dependent on point of view.

krwordgazer

Lunakat, I was following you till that last, and then I got confused. It seems to me that this statement:

[quote:6bc1758b3e="lunakat"] Generally, i agree. If Rayek had chosen to confront the reality of what he was about to do... he would have been horrified. But he did, until the very last possibly moment (and after he had done great harm) choose to blind himself to that reality. Why?[/quote:6bc1758b3e]

directly contradicts your other statement:

[quote:6bc1758b3e="lunakat"][quote:6bc1758b3e]Nomad-Human, it's not that genocide doesn't sicken me. Of course it does! But Rayek, when it came right down to it, [i:6bc1758b3e]didn't [/i:6bc1758b3e]commit genocide, once he truly understood that that was what he was contemplating.[/quote:6bc1758b3e]
Yes he did. He understood. And he was willing to do it anyway. Because, in his mind, his vision was superior... these lives that he was wiping out should never have been born. It was his right to make the choice for others.[/quote:6bc1758b3e]

So, in your mind, [i:6bc1758b3e]did[/i:6bc1758b3e] Rayek understand the reality of the fact that what he was about to do was the equivalent of genocide, or [i:6bc1758b3e]didn't[/i:6bc1758b3e] he?

(I still maintain that he didn't. He wasn't following his thoughts all the way through to their logical conclusion.)

[quote:6bc1758b3e="lunakat"]For him (at least briefly) the ends justified the means... and that is always a dangerous attitude.[/quote:6bc1758b3e]

An attitude, I still maintain, that Kahvi has a good deal of the time. It's just that the means she is willing to justify aren't quite as drastic as Rayek's.

To me, the crimes Rayek actually committed, not the ones he contemplated and then repented of, are the ones he is culpable for. Namely, that he destroyed the Go-Back lodge, and that he kidnapped Cutter's family. As for something he just thought about doing, then came to his senses and stopped himself in time-- the only thing he's guilty of there is a dangerously bad attitude. One, I'll add, that he finally saw in himself and was willing to admit to and change.

I think what you're saying about ordinary German people and the Holocaust is true, Lunakat, and that's why, to me, Rayek represents humanity more than many of the other characters. We are all capable, under the right conditions, of following a dangerous lie. I have done so myself. That's why Nowth's words ring so true to me:

[quote:6bc1758b3e="Nowth"]I suppose... maybe I just feel sorry for everyone who screws up so badly without ever meaning to be "evil". If you never felt that you were the one who was wronged - you start to get used to thinking of yourself as in constant need of forgiveness and in constant danger of punishment. Naturally I could never identify with Cutter or Nightfall or other impeccable characters. So it is for my own sake that mistakes have to be forgivable and perhaps this leads to moral relativism disguised as compassion. I don't know.[/quote:6bc1758b3e]

I have needed forgiveness in my life, many, many times. I don't think it's moral relativism-- I think forgiveness is a moral good that helps, in some spiritual way, to wash away the terrible effects of our tendency to "screw up so badly without ever meaning to be evil."

I suppose that's why my favorite episode in all of Elfquest is the one where Rayek enables Cutter to find a way to forgive.

lunakat

[quote:8cd9c59e22="krwordgazer"]
directly contradicts your other statement:[/quote:8cd9c59e22]
not really.

[quote:8cd9c59e22]So, in your mind, [i:8cd9c59e22]did[/i:8cd9c59e22] Rayek understand the reality of the fact that what he was about to do was the equivalent of genocide, or [i:8cd9c59e22]didn't[/i:8cd9c59e22] he?

(I still maintain that he didn't. He wasn't following his thoughts all the way through to their logical conclusion.)[/quote:8cd9c59e22]
I maintain that he thoroughly understood what the effects of his actions would be and chose to pretend it wasn't all that bad. So, I guess the answer to your question is "yes."

It's like this: Rayek knew that his actions would wipe out the lives of many. He just pretended that wasn't really all that important-- because the people he was killing (in his mind) weren't as important as the people he would be (theoretically) saving.

Like Nowth said earlier... Rayek's would-be crime was rather abstract. It wasn't walking up behind someone and plunging a knife in their gut-- it was a much grander scheme, based on a presumption that some people are "better" than others, and therefore more deserving of life. (Plus, he didn't have to get his hands messy)

So, even understanding exactly what would happen, that makes it easier to ignore or gloss over the implications.

Does that makes sense?

[quote:8cd9c59e22][quote:8cd9c59e22="lunakat"]For him (at least briefly) the ends justified the means... and that is always a dangerous attitude.[/quote:8cd9c59e22]

An attitude, I still maintain, that Kahvi has a good deal of the time. It's just that the means she is willing to justify aren't quite as drastic as Rayek's.[/quote:8cd9c59e22]
Exactly. And I completely agree that the means Kahvi is willing to justify are much less drastic than Rayek's. In that sense, I guess she is a somewhat more ethical creature.

Actually-- that makes sense. In her own way, Kahvi is fair. She never asks more of others than she herself is willing to give. If she wants her warriors to rush into battle, she's leading them there. When she tells Clearbrook not to cry, she herself is holding back her tears. And she does have a point when she tells Savah that the Go Backs deserve a piece of the Palace. After all, they shed blood for it- the Sun Folk didn't.

But Kahvi is not a sympathetic character. She's blunt, vicious in battle, and as chief, she does what she feels she has to do. Most of her actions and decisions have to do with survival-- her own survival and the survival of her people.

She's not terrifically farsighted or imaginative-- which, I think, is why she goes after the little Palace. AFter all, fighting to take back the Palace gave the 'Go Backs' meaning [i:8cd9c59e22]before[/i:8cd9c59e22], so... maybe it will work again? It doesn't occur to her to give them a different kind of goal. I think this lack is also why it is so easy for Zey to undermine her operation. She's chief... she's been chief... even after so many years, she expects them to follow her as chief. It doesn't occur to her that Zey might be bitter about losing his authority.

Now, regarding Venka...
I found this essay about Yun: http://pwp.value.net/~catpur/yun.htm
It has an interesting take on Kahvi's actions when it came to lying to Rayek about Venka. I'll just quote it:

[quote:8cd9c59e22="YunEssay"]
At the time that I originally wrote this, there was a big debate on EQUEST-L about the morality of Kahvi hiding Venka from Rayek. Family and being a father meant a lot to Rayek, but I wonder if Go-Backs really have a concept like we (and the Sun Villagers) do of "fatherhood". Obviously the biological aspect of it is important - see Skot wanting someone to follow after him in Dreamtime. But I don't see their culture as one in which "Mother and Father" raise the children.

First of all, since they breed without Recognition, I'd bet at least half the time, they don't even know who the father of their children IS. See the question of whether Sust is Skot or Pike's, and the fact that Kahvi didn't know for certain that Venka was Rayek's until AFTER she was born. Again, I wonder if Yun knew her father was a Wolfrider before she met Savah, or just that she had been conceived right before the Palace War.

Anyway, given the rate at which Go-Backs seem to get themselves killed, I would imagine it's not uncommon for a child not to have a father even if they know who it was. Especially as one of the children of the Palace-War dance, I doubt Yun was the only child without a father present while she was growing up. (Probably it's not uncommon for children to lose their mothers either.) One thing Yun doesn't seemed that interested in finding is her father. When they actually meet at the end of Shards, she just wants to see what he looks like, but doesn't make any effort (that we see anyway) to talk to him and get to know him. The only time she's really shown much interest in Skywise was after her Chief's Walk, when she wanted to hear stories from Ember. Maybe she finally is interested in getting in touch with her past. Hmm, that's not a very Go-Back thing to do, is it? [/quote:8cd9c59e22]
I rather agree with this take on the issue. I don't think Kahvi really concieved of it as being that big a deal... because, to the Go Backs, it wasn't. In her mind, he was just being wierd and possessive-- and she wanted him off her back.

Nomad also pointed out that Kahvi might have been concerned that Rayek would teach Venka to feel superior because of her magic and look down on her mother's people. I think this was shown to be a legitimate concern when, in Dreamtime, Rayek interprets Venka's dream to mean that she was "above" the Go Backs. Venka, of course, corrects him-- reminding him that that [i:8cd9c59e22]isn't[/i:8cd9c59e22] the right way to think.

[quote:8cd9c59e22="krwordgazer"]To me, the crimes Rayek actually committed, not the ones he contemplated and then repented of, are the ones he is culpable for. Namely, that he destroyed the Go-Back lodge, and that he kidnapped Cutter's family. [/quote:8cd9c59e22]
Sure, but even those actions were pretty bad-- and much worse than anything Kahvi's done (if we are drawing comparisons).

Destroying the Go Back lodge, to me, was the crime that put Rayek over the edge. Never once has he expressed any repentence for that. He ruined the lives of an entire group of people-- taking from them everything they had worked for. And he [i:8cd9c59e22]collapsed a cave[/i:8cd9c59e22] on top of his ex-girlfriend
's head. He didn't even bother to find out whether or not she had survived. That's pretty much manslaughter if she didn't-- right?

I mean, think about it-- He smashes a cave in, refuses to save Kahvi. And then, he reviles the Go Backs for being unworthy. Then he exiles them. And nobody bats an eye!

What gives him the right? If he's mad at Kahvi-- sure, kill her in a cave-in. You're even. But he looks smugly down at all the Go Backs and takes everything away from them- recklessly endangering all their lives in the process. Why does this not seem to bother anybody else?

[quote:8cd9c59e22] As for something he just thought about doing, then came to his senses and stopped himself in time-- the only thing he's guilty of there is a dangerously bad attitude. One, I'll add, that he finally saw in himself and was willing to admit to and change. [/quote:8cd9c59e22]
Which is what made him redeemable. But he [i:8cd9c59e22]was[/i:8cd9c59e22] guilty of more than a bad attitude. He actually took the steps necessary to carry out his plan-- then stopped.

That's like signing up with Osama, then plotting to slam a plane into the World Trade Center... and [i:8cd9c59e22]then[/i:8cd9c59e22], having hijacked control away from the pilot, being about ten seconds away from impact...swerving at the last minute. I mean... you came [i:8cd9c59e22]this close.[/i:8cd9c59e22]
[size=9:8cd9c59e22](and yes, I know someone is going to complain that comparison is inappropriate. But heck, we've been talking about the holocaust...)[/size:8cd9c59e22]

[quote:8cd9c59e22]I think what you're saying about ordinary German people and the Holocaust is true, Lunakat, and that's why, to me, Rayek represents humanity more than many of the other characters. We are all capable, under the right conditions, of following a dangerous lie. I have done so myself. That's why Nowth's words ring so true to me:

[quote:8cd9c59e22="Nowth"]I suppose... maybe I just feel sorry for everyone who screws up so badly without ever meaning to be "evil". If you never felt that you were the one who was wronged - you start to get used to thinking of yourself as in constant need of forgiveness and in constant danger of punishment. Naturally I could never identify with Cutter or Nightfall or other impeccable characters. So it is for my own sake that mistakes have to be forgivable and perhaps this leads to moral relativism disguised as compassion. I don't know.[/quote:8cd9c59e22][/quote:8cd9c59e22]
Hmm.. See, I don't see the other characters in Elfquest as all that perfect. I rather see them all as being human. They have differing strengths and weaknesses. The main characters, at least, make a lot of mistakes. (Leetah, Cutter, Skywise, Bearclaw, Joyleaf, Aroree, Kahvi, Strongbow, Moonshade, Ember, Scot, Krim, Pike... all of them have made mistakes.) Very human mistakes. And their characters have evolved because of that.

[quote:8cd9c59e22]I have needed forgiveness in my life, many, many times. I don't think it's moral relativism-- I think forgiveness is a moral good that helps, in some spiritual way, to wash away the terrible effects of our tendency to "screw up so badly without ever meaning to be evil."[/quote:8cd9c59e22]
Sure. That's makes sense. Forgiveness is necessary and important-- and we all screw up at some time or other. It's just that... some acts carry more weight than others. You have to admit "I kidnapped your family for many years" is different from "I tried to steal burning meat from some humans, deliberately broke the rules, and screwed up."

I think what I disagree with here is that forgiveness can "wash away the effects" of our actions. I think that we can ask forgiveness, we can (perhaps) recieve forgiveness, we forgive ourselves and others... but the effects of our actions remain with us. Saying "I'm sorry" doesn't make it go away.
[quote:8cd9c59e22]I suppose that's why my favorite episode in all of Elfquest is the one where Rayek enables Cutter to find a way to forgive.[/quote:8cd9c59e22]
I like this episode to. It's the point at which Rayek becomes redeemable again for me. But it's not the point at which I forgive and forget his past indescretions.

Nomad put it really well. She said that, Rayek didn't earn her forgiveness, but he earned her respect. He committed some terrible, terrible wrongs. But he was willing to stand up and take the consequences of his actions. He didn't run from the effects of what he had done. Instead, he took responsibility.

Ultimately, I think that is a trait that he and Kahvi have in common. They both are willing, in the end, to take responsibility-- and to shoulder the consequences.

Rayek's sacrifice in Rogues Curse was necessary. Somebody had to do it. Because he created the problem, Rayek volunteered. It was right that he do so. And it speaks volumes about his character... that he had the strength and courage to accept the consequences for what he had done.

Nowth

[quote:2e592a51d4]What gives him the right? If he's mad at Kahvi-- sure, kill her in a cave-in. You're even. But he looks smugly down at all the Go Backs and takes everything away from them- recklessly endangering all their lives in the process. Why does this not seem to bother anybody else? [/quote:2e592a51d4]

What this "arrived" as in my mind was almost cartoon or video game violence; Rayek flies around in a cape, shooting fireballs; Everything's in bright, clean colours; Treestump and Clearbrook aren't amused, but let it go soon - and then we're treated to Picky's comical humiliation.

Rayek's heartless treatment of Two-Edge in SABM, for example, felt so much worse. I suppose KOTBW left me... shall we say... lukewarm. It didn't get to me as much as the story deserved. I suppose I'm almost alone in that so I don't know if that's relevant to anybody else.

krwordgazer

I agree with pretty much everything you said, Lunakat-- so I won't go on further about it. :)

Except that I will always maintain that Rayek was not in his right mind when he destroyed the Go-Back lodge. He was, in a sense, drunk at the time. That's why everyone went so leniently with him.

The fact that, when he came to his senses, Rayek didn't strike his forehead and say, "What have I done?" I attribute to his pride. He may have felt that-- but I think he resisted even those feelings. Rayek had gotten himself long before into a mindset where he believed his actions were right simply because they were his. My father is like this, incidentally, so while I don't like it, I do understand it.

As for the Venka thing-- that makes sense. A thousand pities that Kahvi could neither understand nor appreciate how much fatherhood meant to Rayek (or how appalling he would find it that she showed no grief for the "dead" infant), but, as has been said, that's Kahvi. But it does add to the reasons why I am certain they are not suited to one another as a couple.

krwordgazer

I wanted to add, Nowth, that I also think it's a thousand pities (and worse, since Rayek, unlike Kahvi, was capable of so much more) that Rayek treated Two-Edge so callously. Rayek had the imagination to put himself in Two-Edge's place; he was just too self-centered (and probably too prejudiced) to do so. :(

lunakat

[quote:d2c34df6db="krwordgazer"]As for the Venka thing-- that makes sense. A thousand pities that Kahvi could neither understand nor appreciate how much fatherhood meant to Rayek (or how appalling he would find it that she showed no grief for the "dead" infant), but, as has been said, that's Kahvi. But it does add to the reasons why I am certain they are not suited to one another as a couple.[/quote:d2c34df6db]

Good point Krword! I guess it is "a thousand pities."

But like you say, that's Kahvi. I think, to a certain extent, she was trying to piss off Rayek, just to make him go away. But even if the baby had really died... I doubt she would have shown much grief. If you remember Vaya's death-- the only time Kahvi cries is when her daughter is lying on top of the pile of fallen warriors. When Vaya is killed by the trolls, Kahvi uses it to fuel her anger and keep her strong in battle. In part, I think, she does so because she respected Vaya's decision. Ultimately though, I think Kahvi really is about being practical and moving on.

Which, perhaps goes to show why they are so poorly suited to each other, as you said. Wink

nomad-human

Part of the essential spark that is Khavi is her dedication to duty. It seems to me that over her longer than long life span she has become consumed by it. In the end her duties as chief are what defines her. This makes her a good chief for her people but makes it hard for her to make emotional connections outside of that huge boundary.

I think that Tyldak is good for Khavi in that he's showing her that there is more to life than her duty as chief of the Go-Backs. There are more sights and sounds and colours out there than she was allowing herself to see. I think that Khavi after Tyldak will be a much more rounded person than she was before. I don't see them as lifemates, which has more to do with Tyldak than with her, but I do think they are good for each other in that "I didn't stay with them for life, but they changed my world and I'm forever grateful for them."

One of the reasons that I really like Khavi is that she challenges me to see things from her perspective, she makes me renegotiate my boundaries. By truly empathising with her the many shades of grey in do or die situations have become clearer to me. Both her and Krim have taught me that you don't have to be soft to be a woman, and for me as I am not really all that soft...is a wonderful thing to see. :)

krwordgazer

Elfquest has so many wonderful characters, it seems most people can find someone to identify with . . . I'm glad Kahvi does that for you, Nomad. :)

But I kind of wonder. If Kahvi is dedicated to her tribe to that extent, why does she keep running off and leaving them? Is it [i:f761bef5ab]all [/i:f761bef5ab]for their benefit-- or does she partly do it because of some restlessness within her?

I kind of think that she never has quite figured out what to do with herself now that she doesn't have to constantly think in terms of war and survival. But I agree that meeting Tyldak also has something to do with the changes we see in her after KotBW-- including this restlessness. I'm just not sure it's a good change, a change that comes from internal growth. She seems to not know how to sit still, anymore.

What are your thoughts on this? Maybe it really is duty-- she can't rest till her people have something to define themselves by, now that they no longer have war, or the Palace?

NightAngel

I really enjoy reading these posts :)

lunakat

double post alert! :oops:

lunakat

[quote:4e42ff08de="NightAngel"]I really enjoy reading these posts :)[/quote:4e42ff08de]

We aims to please! Wink Please feel free to jump in! :)

Krword-- I really like your thoughts on the issue. I too wonder about Kahvi's restlessness. I think, to a certain extent, she is just incapable of living under someone else's rules (Cutter's for example). She is (and has been) a leader... specifically a war leader.

It seems that she's been so used to fighting for and seeking something, she just can't rest now that the fighting is over! And losing command of the Go Backs, in a way, was like losing her identity.

So, it seems to me, that perhaps she is seeking to either find another way of living, or to reclaim her old way of life? In many ways, Kahvi's restlessness reflects the general conundrum faced by the Go Backs themselves. What are Go Backs, after all, with nothing to 'go back' to?

Minouche

Well, if I remember well she left her tribe, after Rayek went nuts and dispersed those of the Go-Backs he didn't decimate, with the specific intent to find him (probably not to kiss and make up) and the palace. She arrived too late in the forest, met up with Aroree, and they both went to Sun village hot on his trail. Once again they were too late and they had to chase him all the way to the new continent. On their way they lost Aroree's bird to exhaustion and met with Tyldak. She's got to be the unluckiest girl on Abode because she, yet again, arrived too late and he had gone off with the palace for 10,000 years. Stranded there with a baby, she wisely waited until she was done raising her daughter among the wolfriders (even if it stung her pride to submit to another chief and be dismissed by her own tribe members) before getting back on the road to find the remnants of her tribe and try to get them reorganized. Up to then I see no wanderlust, restlessness, meaness, etc... Later, when she took the Go-Backs on a war against Sun village, when she stole the small egg from Aurek, when she tried to impose an involuntary fatherhood on Cutter (this, to me, is a form of rape), and when she abandonned Teir as a child (if we can trust his very vague memory in when Lerringen (sp) presented the Hunt with her braids).I don't recognize her. She had become sour and, at the same time, paradoxically monomaniac and rudderless. I keep on hoping she died bravely and made up for that part of her life. I hope also that Wendy will show us that episode eventually.

spiritdetectivegirl

lol,Kahvi Avatar.
:D!

manga

More Kahvi avatar! (Originally she had blue eyes.) [img:c61956440f]http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9817/tek06112369c44es0.png[/img:c61956440f]

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