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Kahvi: Go-backs / Wolfriders

Blackbird

I guess the answer says anywhere here, but I didn't find it. so I'll just ask. The go-backs are all original wolfriders? ain't they? They all came from the wolfriders who went with Two - spear? Wouldn't that mean they all have a liiiiittle wolfblood?

Nowth

Not as far as I know. Two-Spear's bunch had met other elves, together they became the Go-Backs. Also, Willowgreen had for reasons of her own whimsical self "cleansed" their wolfblood, except for Kahvi's since she was lying "dead" in a pool which is a romantic thing to do for maidens in general but considered a plot device in this special case. So only Kahvi's descendants could possibly have wolfblood, and Kavhi doesn't have "much" for some reason. Though I don't understand how you can "remove wolfblood", much less remove "some" of it... it seems like sucking the "Caucasian blood" out of somebody who's half African. Hrm.

Foxeye

Two-Spear's lifemate Willowgreen, the healer, was said to have removed the wolf blood from them. Something about it being a betrayal on her part. We don't know much more than that.

Minouche

well, with Two Spears acting more and more like a rabbid animal, the long abusive relationship Willogreen had to endure with him (lifemating is long when your an elf), and the fact that he "killed" by trickiing her the only child they had, I'm not so sure I blame her for the "betrayal". + you've got to admit that was sneakily brilliant: the more he forced them to live like beasts, the more she thwarted him by making them solely elves. As far as the diluted wolfblood of Kahvi, it may be due to the magic pool water or Willowgreen may have been a less talented healer than Winnowill or Leetah. Maybe, for her, it was a long process she had already started on the whole group, but didn't have time to complete on her daughter.

Nowth

just wondering what it means to have "diluted" wolf"blood"... it's not literally the blood that matters, is it...

Minouche

I'm not a healer, just a student in applied linguistics . I can't tell you how elf blood is removed, I just know Wendy had both Winnowill (using magically produced breast milk) and Leetah (just hugging Starwise) do it and, when the stories of the go-backs came out, we learned that Willowgreen had done it too to a whole group of wolf riders. Wendy also say (somewhere on the forum) that Khavi has very little wolf blood left in her, hence her very long life. That's what I meant by diluted. How Willowgreen did it, whether it was a quick or a long drawn process... I have no idea, just speculations based on hints I find in the story. For all I know I may be misreading the whole thing. Maybe we can ask Elfmom when she comes back from vacations.

Foxeye

Obviously they stick the elf in a giant centrifuge. The wolf blood is lighter and eventually comes flying out the tops of their heads.

Duh. 8)

crescent1325

Grin @ Foxy

I personally like to think that Kahvi wasnt subject to Willowgreens "treachry." I think that as Kahvi lay preserved in the Pool of water (that has to have some kind of Highone Magic), it preserved her and felt out the "flaw" of the wolf blood, and corrected it.

Now, im not calling wolf blood a flaw. Cuz, i think thats what make the Wolfriders Special.

My 2 cents anyways...

Minouche

Or one could debate that Willowgreen, far from thinking she was harming her tribe and her daughter, believed that she was saving them from having to die alonside their crazy wolf blooded chief. Only the elder remaining from that first generation is calling it treachery, who knows what she thought, what the rest of them thought or whether, in her own way, willowgreen wasn't as crazy as her mate.

crescent1325

which is why i put Treachery in quotation marks. What she did is open to interpretation! Wink Grin

Right now, all we know is that Icetooth thinks it was treachery.

But then again...he kinda preformed his own treachery, by teaching Kahvi to be leader. i mean we all know he did that To spite Twospear. But either way..i think Kahvi was a good leader at times..

Blackbird

Ok, thanks for the answers :) But where did the elves they met came from?

krwordgazer

Blackbird, in the comic series "Love and Loss," Ekuar speculates that the Go-Backs are descended from the group he came from, before he was captured by the trolls. So I think the theory is that Two-Spear's elves met the descendants of those High Ones who gave birth to Ekuar, Mekda and Osek.

Minouche

At one time Rahnee meets with other elves and I think I also remember sheep herding elves that her companion meets on his way while looking for her. (It's kind of vague in my memory so, as soon as I'm done with my overdue essay, I'll try to find out when and how the meetings take place.) The fact that the story concentrates on Timmorn's descendants of the wolfriders group and those they meet doesn't mean we already know all the elves of the World of two Moons. We may be in for a surprise and see those barely encountered groups come back to the forefront of the storyline at some future time the same way the go backs did for a while.

Foxeye

The group that Rahnee met are roughly referred to as Trickster's tribe, and yar, they kept goats, ate goat cheese, wore goat-hair shirts, and built houses with thatched roots. Trickster, who led and protected them for a while, was in fact a troll who had not been part of the betrayal.

Interestingly enough, the tribe that Freefoot met at one point also rode goats. I'm a little unclear whether they are the same people, or if they were one writers interpretation of the descendents of Two-Spear (which would obviously be non-canon at this point).

I sure hope we find that there are completely random groups of elves that didn't all descend from nine elves from Hidden Years 6-7. With the supposed death-rate of the firstcomers, it wouldn't make sense that 9 elves could turn into hundreds upon hundreds of descendents. So far they haven't tried to tie-in the wavedancers.... *cross fingers*

Minouche

What if the 9 aren't all the elves who came on the "palace"? It seems to me that some of them are either given a couple different names each, or the 9 are only the leading team. This also would explain why Winnowill had no trouble convincing Vol of the organisation of the chosen 8 system. If it were already a known pattern among the high ones, Vol would have been eager to reproduce it in Blue Mountain.

crescent1325

See thats what i have always thought. The circle of nice was just the "crew" of the ship so to speak. There had to have been other elves that made it out. The circle of nine, in most part, was the Begining of the Wolfriders. So who knows where the other elves went.

oh, and also when Timmain is speaking about the exodus of the planet, it isnt said that they were the last nine. it just said they gathered the last of thier people and other surving creatures.

anyways...my 2 cents yet again.

Meus

It is obvious the nine elves of the Circle are not the only ones living in the Palace. When they were confronted to Humans after the "Accident", more than 9 of them died, right? :?

Meus

Foxeye

Not a question of whether they were the only ones in the palace, but whether they were the only ones to survive.

In the original stories, we were given the impression that many different bands of elves survived, though they were scattered and confused. But the tone of the story in "How Shall I keep from Singing?" made me fear that the realistic, chaotic beginning was being re-shaped into a much cleaner, simpler beginning. As if someone was very uncomfortable with loose ends, so they tried to come up with a theory of everything. We had an angsty elf who looked like Rayek. An stargazer who looked like female Skywise. A healer who looked like a male leetah. An plantshaper who looked like a female Redlance.

Elves who we were led to believe had died horribly (the blond lady in green from book 1), were now okiliedokilie. Elves who we had thought were too confused and scattered to retake the palace instead simply "let it go" because they didn't want to stoop to being bad people. Somehow we're supposed to believe that, minus the sacrificial Adya (we couldn't bring him back from the dead, after all...he was clearly smished in book 1), the ENTIRE executive staff made it out. But no one else did. At least not with them. Because life is always that neatly comparmentalized. Like how in star trek the highest ranking officers always go on away missions, and always manage to survive even when everyone else is massacred.

Forgive me for saying this, but it was like bad fanfiction.

(Sorry Meus, I have no idea what this had to do with your post. I think I just wanted a good bellyache to wake me up.)

Thallasia

Quote:
Foxeye

the ENTIRE executive staff made it out. But no one else did. At least not with them.



Actually there's one panel in that high one story where you can see the silouettes of other elves in the back of the cave. I think.

I agree though, that that story kind of ruined the whole arrival of the high one thing by simplifying (sp?) it so much.
I've actually been thinking of asking elfmom if she can give a ballpark number of how many high ones survived the crash. Is it few dozen or more like a few hundred? I've always been curious about that.

Minouche

That story gives a hint as to how those gifts got passed on to the sun villagers and the wolfriders, it doesn't rule out other survivor groups with similar or totally different abilities, only their communication with either of those tribes. Since it seems that before Sunstream nobody had a very great range for sending, this absence of mutual knowledge coud be normal. Apart from Vol there is no ancestor shown for the gliders either and he couldn't do parthenogenesis because the elves don't seem to reproduce without both sexes involved and he is no female anyways. But mostly, I think the reason Elfmom won't tell us, is because she has to manage how and when she releases the info not to ruin the suspense. As I said before: at this time we don't know whether Cutter's tribe will meet anybody else, or whom Wink Wink Wink

Meus

[quote:017e3d03b8="Foxeye"]...As if someone was very uncomfortable with loose ends, so they tried to come up with a theory of everything. We had an angsty elf who looked like Rayek. An stargazer who looked like female Skywise. A healer who looked like a male leetah. An plantshaper who looked like a female Redlance.[/quote:017e3d03b8]

I admit they and elves we know looking alike so much may be exagerated a little :) But it was a good way to explain why descendant of the High Ones could do such things as healing, tree shaping or shape changing. Now we know High Ones still mastered these powers after the crash, although very weakened, AND that each Cone Head actually had a special skill in [b:017e3d03b8]one[/b:017e3d03b8] of them. Being on Adobe just revealed which one they mastered the best.

And I agree with Muriel about this story. It enlightens things about Wolfriders (And Sun Folk? Are we sure Hacken is the ancestor of Savah's family?). But nothing in it forbids to imagine other bands of elves fleeing the Palace in other directions. We still have to hear about Wavedancers' story (since the OWD origins must be non-canon now) and any other tribe Sunstream might discover. I sooooo look forward this worldwide sending! I want to see plain elves and maybe cave elves! Not Drows though ;)

[quote:017e3d03b8="Foxeye"]Somehow we're supposed to believe that, minus the sacrificial Adya (we couldn't bring him back from the dead, after all...he was clearly smished in book 1), the ENTIRE executive staff made it out. But no one else did. At least not with them.[/quote:017e3d03b8]

[i:017e3d03b8]"we couldn't bring him back from the dead, after all..."[/i:017e3d03b8]
Isn't that a strong evidence that the Cone Heads could do such a thing? Maybe they could repair a damaged body, then call the spirit back! That would be incredible Surprised After all, Adya's spirit is till in the Palace, right? Maybe Timmain could call the dead High Ones back?! She just have to... find bodies :?

[quote:017e3d03b8="Foxeye"](Sorry Meus, I have no idea what this had to do with your post. I think I just wanted a good bellyache to wake me up.)[/quote:017e3d03b8]

Woohoo! Foxeye, are you kidding? :D No matter how discussions are turning, I love it all! So, please, feel free to expose your toughts, anytime ;) Don't make you sick though! :?

Meus

TrollHammer

I know this thread is old, but it fits and answered a few points for me in my quest. Still, i have many questions, so I thought I'd revisit this thread (if anyone looks here anymore)

I'm trying to get the geneology (sp?) of the elves down for some goofing around I'm working on for a plot device in fan fic. Big undertaking, so I was wondering if anyone knew of a family tree that someone's done?

As far as the topics brought up by this thread, about clensing, Khavi having small amounts of wolfblood, and the like, I have some thoughts that were not settled by the statements mentioned in this thread so far or anywhere else I've looked. Please do comment on anything I'm inaccurate about or wrong, as I want to be as precise as possible!

At the beginning of when the firstcomers arrived, pure-blooded elves (don't know how many, 9 with some dead, 9 with one dead, more, or what, but one was later found on board as the pilot and either died of age, died in the crash, or came back later and retook their position and died from wrapstuff failure, not sure) left the palace in a foresty area.

Timmian shape-changed into a wolf and hunted for the rest.

One of the others made a baby (Vol) and Timmian mated with a wolf and birthed Timmorn Yellow Eyes.

A tribe made up of some pure blooded elves, some mixed blood elves, and mixtures of all previously involved tribe members grows.

Timmorn takes some as 'the hunt', and according to this thread they become more like wolves, for whatever the reason, and later Rhanee finds them and brings them back.

Two Spear splits the tribe (I've been lead to believe that some of the tribesmates are still full blooded elves at this time), and takes half back to the palace. ***(what I don't understand is at what point the elves were seperated by such a great distance from the palace, how it was that an ice age set in there (or if the palace moved to the frozen mountains) and all that, because I always thought they got far enough away to stop having humans chase them, but not so far they would have starved to death or we wouldn't have Timmian become a wolf and start the story)***

Two-Spear finds forgotten magic cave, continues to search for palace. He and Khavi fight, khavi falls into pool and is frozen in time for thousands of years.

(according to this thread) Willowspring 'clenses' the tribe of wolfblood, and then they meet with Ekuar's tribe, which are full blooded. He and his two fellow rockshapers are captured for some reason by the trolls.

Meanwhile,

The sun-villagers, full blooded, wander out to the desert and set up camp, for some reason thinking it was the ideal place to be. The two eldest are not full blooded, but were first or second generation.

The gliders (with winnie and presumably Vol/Voll), full blooded elves, settle in Blue Mountain.

The rest of the Wolfriders keep on doing thier thing in the forest, end up mixing fairly evenly among all, as far as percentage of wolfblood is concerned. As of Bearclaw and Cutter's time, all living elves are roughly the same level of wolfblood and there are no full-bloods or first-comers. Timmian has long since ran off and go who knows where, and we pick her up later.

Ekuar's tribe, who are full blooded, presumably decended from first comers and settled somewhere in the path of Two-Spear. (I have to assume that one of the initial battles resulted in the capture of the three rock shapers, and the blood feud between go-back and troll. Was this in a series that I missed some where?)


My questions are:

For each tribe, who were the origional firstcomers that sired the inital tribe, and where did they each go?

What are the lineages from each of the origional first-comers, and what cross-overs between tribes were there?

What other tribes are there (I know of wavedancers and a little of plains elves, but I don't know where they fit in) and how do they fit?

Has anyone else done any other family trees of this nature?


One last comment, on the subject of 'light/full/half/mixed/etc-blooded' elves:
My impression is that at the start of each tribe of mixed blood there were a the origional full-bloods, the initial half-blood, his offspring the quarter bloods, their offspring (assuming sibs didn't mix), eighth bloods, and so on. Inbreeding later on (cousins) would not significantly raise the amound of wolfblood per se, and assuming that there is some end to full bloods for whatever reason (there are none among the wolfriders), the mix would eventually even out though the population, though after 10 generations it would be a VERY small amount (some gen 5 would be only 1/32 if there were any full-bloods still around).
There is also the question of how much wolf carries over each time, which would be randomly between 0% and 50% of what each parent had. This confuses the above generalization of halving it each time. In some cases the wolf would carry over stronger than at other times, so it's not a straight figure, just an average of what a high population of elves would have going on.
Then there's the question of magic, which seems to wreak havoc with the mix of blood, some times calling more wolf, sometimes more magic (ember and suntop). So it's really a mish-mash.

So, in conclusion, as to how Khavi would have 'too little' wolf in her, or different amounts than others in a similar situation, she's half her father, which is strong wolf, but half her mother, which is strongish magical, and the blood she called to herself would determine the final result.

As to clensing, the more precise application of what I'm studying shows that as any such 'wolfblood' was changed in an elf (be it skywise, the Go-Backs, windkin, or what-have-you), it would have to be replaced with something else. on the genetic front (what I'm trying to work out), it would mean that for any offspring, the makeup is roughly 1/2 dad and 1/2 mom. If dad has something 1/32 'different' with him, you've got up to 1/32 something 'different' with you, but probibly more like 1/64ish. If someone wished to take that out, they'd have to put back in 1/64ish (or however much is changed) back in with SOMETHING ELSE. It does not go in to this depth in the story, but does the healer just add whatever they want, add from their own genes, or try to fill in from other recessive genes (like if they're in pairs, and one side is taken out, is the other side duplicated to fill the empty space?) My genetic model for the elves is much more complex than that, and it's almost functional, but I need the decendancy for the tribes to complete it.

Any help out there?

faeriegirl

Questions:
For each tribe, who were the origional firstcomers that sired the inital tribe, and where did they each go?
UNKNOWN. Seriously. No canon answer given, maybe someday in a Quest to come...
What are the lineages from each of the origional first-comers, and what cross-overs between tribes were there?
Same answer as above.
What other tribes are there (I know of wavedancers and a little of plains elves, but I don't know where they fit in) and how do they fit?
Sounds pretty much like you have them all now, assuming that split-offs from the Hunt became the plains elves.
Has anyone else done any other family trees of this nature?
Not that I know of, all family trees I've seen are mainly Wolfrider trees (plus the occasional Sun Folk/Glider who Recognized a Wolfrider ofcourse)

As for genetics... it has been said (I think) that it works VERY differently for elves. In humans, mating between cousins would sooo develop an inbreeding depression... no such signs with the elves. But there's not really an answer, I'm afraid...

So, here's the Golden Rule Of Fanfic: Do Whatever You Want. If there's no canon/non-canon answer, make up your own!

Embala

Good answers, faeriegirl. I'll try to add some information or another, tho.



Quote:
I'm trying to get the geneology (sp?) of the elves down for some goofing around I'm working on for a plot device in fan fic. Big undertaking, so I was wondering if anyone knew of a family tree that someone's done?
I have done a huge family tree including several tribes ... sometimes according to my fancy, but mostly as exact as I know. Havn't included the early Wolfriders, tho (never read the prose novels so far), nor any High Ones.



As mentioned there is no proved relationship besides Timmain. Although it's highly speculated that Haken and Gabra were ancestors of the Gliders.



For me it's sure that there MUST BE more survivors than the eight we know. Even without the inbreeding problems such a small number would have been hardly a survivable genetic pool. The two issues about the High One's beginning on Abode are more a simplified genesis instead of a completely passed down history.



No idea which of the early tribes would have had it's own High Ones. Their number makes me dout that they were only split offs from Timmain's group, tho

- the early Wolfriders (Others, Firstborn and Hunt)

- the Rootless ones (whose last survivors founded Sorrow's End)

- the group which stayed near the Palace (Ekuar's tribe)

- Trickster's clan, whose last four surviors were timemates of Rahnee (prose stories only)

- the early Gliders with Voll as chief

- the Wavedancers (can't help to see them as an independent depeloped tribe)

last not least

- the Goatriders/prairie elves from Freefoot's time (prose stories only)



Voll and Ekuar (with Osek and Mekda) were refered to as "Firstborn"; not quite sure whether this was also mentioned for Hassbet (Savah's mother). Firstborn means that at least one of their parents was a Firstcomer (= High One). It's an indication that they were born in early times. On the other hand - as long as there was at least one surviving (fertile) High One there would have been "new" Firstborns.



Quote:


At the beginning of when the firstcomers arrived, pure-blooded elves (don't know how many, 9 with some dead, 9 with one dead, more, or what, but one was later found on board as the pilot and either died of age, died in the crash, or came back later and retook their position and died from wrapstuff failure, not sure) left the palace in a foresty area.
Prove positive for 8 survivors so far (Hidden Years #6 and #7) ... see my comment above.



Quote:
Timmian shape-changed into a wolf and hunted for the rest.



One of the others made a baby (Vol) and Timmian mated with a wolf and birthed Timmorn Yellow Eyes.
Timmain had a daughter with another elf (maybe Aerth) before Timmorn.

Vol is the son of Gibra and Deir (and according to Richard or Wendy NOT Lord Voll).

Sefra and Kalil are shown with the fourth child born to the High Ones.



Quote:
A tribe made up of some pure blooded elves, some mixed blood elves, and mixtures of all previously involved tribe members grows.



Timmorn takes some as 'the hunt', and according to this thread they become more like wolves, for whatever the reason, and later Rhanee finds them and brings them back.
The early tribe contains the Others (pureblooded elves), Firstborn (at least one parent a Firstcomer; Firstborn could be purebloods and wolfbloods) and the Hunt (descendents of Timmorn; both with elves and wolves.



The Hunt mated among each other, with pureblooded elves and with wolves. They left the rest of the wolfriders at the time Rahnee became chief. After the tribe split they tended more and more to their wolven side, both in body and mind. Blackfell, Bearclaw's last wolf friend, is supposed to be a descendant of the Hunt (clearly more than a wolf, but no longer elf).

btw: the wolfpack the Wolfriders bond with has a certain amount of elf blood, too.



Quote:
Two Spear splits the tribe (I've been lead to believe that some of the tribesmates are still full blooded elves at this time), and takes half back to the palace.
There were several pureblooded elves and those with weak wolfblood at this time. The last pureblooded elf among the Wolfriders died when Tanner became chief.



Quote:
***(what I don't understand is at what point the elves were seperated by such a great distance from the palace, how it was that an ice age set in there (or if the palace moved to the frozen mountains) and all that, because I always thought they got far enough away to stop having humans chase them, but not so far they would have starved to death or we wouldn't have Timmian become a wolf and start the story)***
There was a discussion about this inconsistance somewhen on the Scroll. Easiest thing would be to blame Ice Age (there was one mentioned by Picknose in OQ #7).



Quote:
Two-Spear finds forgotten magic cave, continues to search for palace. He and Khavi fight, khavi falls into pool and is frozen in time for thousands of years.



(according to this thread) Willowspring 'clenses' the tribe of wolfblood, and then they meet with Ekuar's tribe, which are full blooded. He and his two fellow rockshapers are captured for some reason by the trolls.
As far as I got it:

Fight between Two-Spear and Kahvi -> Two-Spear finds magic cave and dreams of finding the Palace -> Willowspring cleanses blood -> meeting and mix up with Ekuar's tribe.



Quote:
Meanwhile,

The sun-villagers, full blooded, wander out to the desert and set up camp, for some reason thinking it was the ideal place to be. The two eldest are not full blooded, but were first or second generation.
All were pureblooded elves, ... maybe Hassbet was a Firstborn.



Quote:
The gliders (with Winnie and presumably Vol/Voll), full blooded elves, settle in Blue Mountain.
Lord Voll (= not Vol) and Winnowill and others - look for some more background in EQ Vol. 2 #28, page 23 ff.



Quote:
The rest of the Wolfriders keep on doing thier thing in the forest, end up mixing fairly evenly among all, as far as percentage of wolfblood is concerned. As of Bearclaw and Cutter's time, all living elves are roughly the same level of wolfblood and there are no full-bloods or first-comers. Timmian has long since ran off and go who knows where, and we pick her up later.
Yup



Quote:
Ekuar's tribe, who are full blooded, presumably decended from first comers and settled somewhere in the path of Two-Spear. (I have to assume that one of the initial battles resulted in the capture of the three rock shapers, and the blood feud between go-back and troll. Was this in a series that I missed some where?)
look for Ekuar's background in EQ Vol. 2 #29, page 34 ff.



I will not claim that my answers are the absolute undoubtable truth Wink but the best I got from various sources (comics, Wolfrider's Guide, discussions on the Scroll) rounded with some thoughts of my own.



Enough for this time ... must return to take a closer look on your question about genetics and cleansing. Please excuse any typos ... should be asleep for hours

sulken

if it were really just the surviving members of the circle, they would have be to EXTREMELY reproductive to produce so many tribes! And in the compendium other surviving high ones are mentioned (like the one, who created the dreamberry bush).

I was always lead to think, that the gliders, who later split with the rest of the tribe might have founded the go backs.

yeah, but now it's all wolfrider...

Sadachbia

For my own AU (canon mileage may vary), I decided there were 128 Firstcomers on the Ship (eight eights of men, eight eights of women) and something like 50 died in the First Contact with humans or by misadventure thereafter. The rest survived and gave rise to all the tribes of surviving elves (which, in my AU, includes a handful of non-canon tribes in places besides Iceholt, the continent where the Ship landed). I've also tried to include the Rootless Ones, Trickster's Clan, and various other Firstborn.

I don't know how much of the fanon stuff I've codified would conflict with what Wendy hasn't yet revealed, though since my AU includes the original (Black Mermaid) WaveDancers in addition to the newer (canon) WaveDancers, mine could never be considered anything beyond "what-if".

RichardPini

Sadachbia said: ...fanon...


I like that term!