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Elf too old to Recognise?

Badger

If there already is an existing topic about the matter, the moderators can close this one.



So, yesterday I was reading magazines about kids and family and began to wonder if an elf can be too old to recognise and reproduce?

We humans certainly can, it becomes problematic for females at the age of 40 or so and to males it might become problematic some time later that age.



Some elves, such as Wolfriders age and die eventually - except that I guess I have never seen a wolfrider die of old age - but the immortal elves only age and never die, unless something happens to them. Is Savah too old to reproduce anymore? Not to mention Timmain or Ekuar.

Or is it about the status, as seeing it so, that they have a hard time to find their match for Recognition?

Leanan

I think Timmain could Recognize. There have been hints



(spoiler alert!)







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(just hints) that she would Recognize Skywise and give birth to Jink.





Tyldak might well have been Savah's age when he Recognized Dewshine.



So, I think the immortal ones who don't age as such can Recognize even when they're old. However, for the mortal ones, it may be different. It was said somewhere that Clearbrook is too old to bear children. (I can't remember where I read this and how official the source was, I think it was something posted on this forum).

stargazer

I think it in the novel of Journey to Sorrow's End where Clearbrook says she feels a stillness within herself, and doesn't think she will have more chldren. Bearclaw was pretty old for a Wolfrider when he recognised Joyleaf though.

Badger

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I think it in the novel of Journey to Sorrow's End where Clearbrook says she feels a stillness within herself, and doesn't think she will have more chldren. Bearclaw was pretty old for a Wolfrider when he recognised Joyleaf though.



Well, maybe reproduction is easier to males than females. Although, it makes me wonder... How old Joyleaf was when she gave birth to Cutter?



And yeah, I had completely forgotten Tyldak, although the whole tribe of the Gliders had difficulties to reproduce, because they did not get hurt or die. And considering really old elves like Savah and Ekuar, I just guess they are so old and experienced that it is hard to find a soul to match, or so?



As I think of it, Woodlock and Rainsong had their children within a short period. But then again, Moonshade and Strongbow had three kids as well, but within a longer period.

Leanan

Joyleaf was younger than Bearclaw, but by how much, I am not sure. Bearclaw already had a beard when he Recognized Joyleaf and it seems to me wolfriders only get beards when they're getting older.

I think characters like Voll, Savah and Ekuar do not Recognize simply because that is not the role reserved to them in the plot. Theoretically they could, and who knows, perhaps Savah and Ekuar will Recognize each other in the next issue of ElfQuest and have a baby called Buttercup. (I know this is extremely unlikely, but theoretically, it would be possible. Apart from the baby's name, Savah has better taste.)

Badger

Savah and Ekuar recognizing each other would be a pleasant surprise.

Actually, now I wonder if Savah would be too old to carry children - physically, I mean.
I have no idea, why old age affects the pregnancies of humans, since I have not done much research on the subject.

Apogee

For Wolfriders and any other "mortal" elves, I would say yes there is the possibility that the females become barren after a long while. However, for immortal ones, look at Toorah and Anatim - Sun Toucher... they recognized twice "after being friends for so very long" - I think they both thought they were 'too old' for it to happen to them, but then there they are. And not just for Leetah to be born, but her sister many many years later. Obviously they and Moonshade/Strongbow are examples of Recognition "knowing".

Since both Leetah and her sister Shenshen played important roles in the progress toward the stars, I have to then imagine that Chitter will too, or play a role with the Wolfriders, since Dart also has been quite important to them.

But I'm almost certain that for any truly immortal elf, age doesn't matter.

Leanan

Yay, Apogee agrees with me.

Immortal elves in other universes (Tolkien, celtic mythology, etc) have been able to have children at an age considered old even for elves in that universe. Generally, it seems fantasy creatures in the immortal category do not get anything like the human menopause. Usually there is some reason they don't have too many children - if immortal creatures had babies as often as humans, the world they live on would be crowded. I've read stories of angels having babies, and angels are considered older than the universe.

Generally it seems to me fantasy creatures of the immortal kind should not be assumed to resemble humans biologically in any way not specified by the person who invented them.

Kathleen once wrote a fanfic of Voll and Savah Recognizing. It was very cute.

Vojira

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Kathleen once wrote a fanfic of Voll and Savah Recognizing. It was very cute.





She did? What is it called??

Leanan

That's what I'm trying to remember and failing. Headbang2

G0lden

Tanner was about 1400 yrs when he recognized a 14 yr old. Bearclaw was well over a 1000 yrs old when he and Joyleaf recognized. I don't think it matters whether their are mortal or immortal. Recognition can happen when it is meant to regardless of age. Strongbow and Moondshade weren't exactly youngsters when they recognized for the third time either.

Vojira

Nooooo! Find some kind of 'helps you remember stuff like that' tea people!

Anyway, I agree with Apogee. It would make sense if the mortal females become barren after a long time. Makes sense to me at least.

Leanan

I don't need help me remember tea, I have forum search button.

I found the story and bumped it to the top of the fan fiction forum. It is called 'Gift of Gifts (for MultiMedea)'.

This is where you all thank me. Because Kathleen ROCKS.

stargazer

"Because Kathleen ROCKS."



She does indeed. I wish she would come back and write more stories.

Leanan

I think she's writing a novel now. Of her very own. That's even more awesome.

crescent1325

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Some elves, such as Wolfriders age and die eventually - except that I guess I have never seen a wolfrider die of old age - .







Off topic, I know, but just wanted to share the knowledge. In BoTC books, there was a wolfrider elf to die of old age -Graywing. Smile

lunakat

I'm going to have to look that up! Thanks.

I would bet that the immortal elves are probably able to reproduce despite their age... on account of being ageless! But that mortal elves go through something like menopause. Maybe, just like most mammals, the males can continue to inseminate well into their later years (bearclaw!)- but the females can't reproduce as easily the older they get. It sort of make sense.. considering they got their mortality from wolves. If their bodies start to break down naturally, it would probably happen in the same way that it would for wolves. And female wolves do get too old to breed.

Trollbabe

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I think it in the novel of Journey to Sorrow's End where Clearbrook says she feels a stillness within herself, and doesn't think she will have more chldren. Bearclaw was pretty old for a Wolfrider when he recognised Joyleaf though.




I remember that, too. There is one other story that I can't remember as well. During the time of the first nine chiefs, I think there was a female Elf who experienced Recognition after the Elven equivalent of menopause. She was unable to complete the cycle of Recognition, because she couldn't conceive. She eventually drowned herself.

Soreyes

Well this is Elfquest so anything can happenSmile

Sky1275

Rellah the High one, recognized different wolfriders and purebloods from Timmorn through Preypacer's day. I am thinking that pureblooded elf women can reproduce offspring for the majority of their lives; thousands upon thousands of years (if they live that long). Wolfriders and their various kin with Timmorn's blood, the women will eventually experience menopause or something like it maybe after Several hundred or one thousand years, all mortal women experience this. All men can reproduce until they die, no matter if they are 12 or 1000000 years old! So Lord Voll, had he lived, could have recognized a full grown Ember......YUCK.



On the age that wolfriders die.... it depends on the person, if there is disease (even purebloods can get disease),whatever. Graywing lived from Preypacer's time til the year of the big flood in Freefoot's day I will estimate she was between 2300- 3300. Longreach/Longbranch lived from Freefoots day til the Madcoil attack in Bearclaw's day.... Tanner was chief for over 800 years, let's say that is close to the norm..... He had to be around 3200-3600 years old easy, but he didn't have the chance to die from old age. No telling how long he could have lived. Weren't Woodlock, Rainsong, and Wing somewhere between 2500-4000, when they all died of old age?

Gypsy_Anna

It's biology. Human females have a monthly menstrual cycle until their ovaries stop producing eggs.

In The Searcher and the Sword, Shuna has an issue where her menstrual cycle distracts the wolf pack, and has a thought about elven women not having that problem. I suspect that elves, with their long lives, don't menstruate as humans do, and need Recognition to cause the release of an egg to be fertilized. If that's the case, then they could conceivably eternally fertile unless they're constantly in a state of Recognition. Smile And that could also be why it was necessary for Leetah to take a hand in Tyleet's conception.

As for Clearbrook's feeling a stillness within, it could simply be a health reason of her own. Some women are naturally barren; so, too, could some elves. Or it could be that she believes herself barren because her Recognized mate is gone and she can't conceive of Recognition with anyone else.

ceruleanblue

Hmm...I think it's been established by Wendy that elf-women do undergo a process akin to human female menopause. I'm sure that I've read statements by the authors to that effect in an interview, though which one escapes me. The only question, I suppose, is whether this is a biological process that both Wolfriders and immortals go through. If Wolfriders only, it would make sense, since their biology is part wolf. Are there any certain examples we have of immortal elves having offspring well over, say, 5000 years? I always got the impression that Clearbrook's statement was alluding to a form of menopause, not a health issue. And as stated before, I'm sure that Wendy has confirmed this somewhere.

stargazer

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Are there any certain examples we have of immortal elves having offspring well over, say, 5000 years?




All the High Ones for a start. When they arrived on the WOTM they were already ancient and they had to relearn how to reproduce.

MultiMEDEA

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Originally posted by: ceruleanblue



Are there any certain examples we have of immortal elves having offspring well over, say, 5000 years?



All the High Ones for a start. When they arrived on the WOTM they were already ancient and they had to relearn how to reproduce.





Since we have no idea how old Dodia, Bihtia, Krim, or Brill are, it's hard to say. Or, how old Winnie was when Two-Edge was born. Kahvi's technically considered to be immortal by the Pinis, and she was at least 7000 when she had Venka. That also answers another conjecture a previous poster had: Recognition isn't necessary for egg release and fertilization in elf females.

lunakat

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Since we have no idea how old Dodia, Bihtia, Krim, or Brill are, it's hard to say. Or, how old Winnie was when Two-Edge was born. Kahvi's technically considered to be immortal by the Pinis, and she was at least 7000 when she had Venka. That also answers another conjecture a previous poster had: Recognition isn't necessary for egg release and fertilization in elf females.





Yes, except... Winnie is a healer. It's already been established that a healer (Rain and Leetah did it) can cause fertilization outside of recognition. And Kahvi is a Go Back. Somehow, the Gobacks breed without recognition- they are different. Something about them changed. So these two are exceptions to the rule.



It's still likely that recognition creates fertility in females. Males don't seem to need recognition to impregnate a female (Skywise + Goback= Yun), but non-goback females seem to need it to be receptive.



On the other hand, the elves are aliens. So what happens with them may be entirely different than what happens with us. It may not have to do with eggs and ovaries at all. On the other other hand.. some mortal elves seem to experience menopause (which makes sense, since they are part wolf- and wolves go through menopause). So that suggests that there is a similarity between them and us... as in, maybe they do have eggs to fertilize.



Funny how we expect there to be a rule for this- and for that rule to make sense, according to how we understand biology. It's cool that the Pinis created such a believable world!

MultiMEDEA

As it's been stated in Wolfrider history that various members have also conceived children outside of Recognition, there are far more than a few exceptions. Even though only one exception is enough to disprove biological necessity. :D

Trollbabe

Ekuar was captured by the Trolls when he and his two companions were children. I assume they were guarded around the clock. If so, I guess that Mekda was never allowed enough contact with either of the boys to conceive a child. (Not sure why Guttlekraw didn't think to use them as breeding stock for more Rockshapers - his cruelty knew no bounds.)



By the time Rayek freed him, Ekuar was older than Savah. The two of them lived with the Go-Backs for a few years, and were intimate with them. The Go-backs aren't much into nuclear family structure. So I wonder if Ekuar is capable of fathering children, and if any of the Go-Backs are his offspring.

lunakat

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As it's been stated in Wolfrider history that various members have also conceived children outside of Recognition, there are far more than a few exceptions. Even though only one exception is enough to disprove biological necessity. :D





where was this stated?

MultiMEDEA

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where was this stated?







http://www.elfquest.com/comic_viewer.php?fd=/gallery/OnlineComics/OQ/OQ13/_Original%20ElfQuest%20-%2013_page=1#_29#



But I think other mentions are in BoTC (comics and novels), NB #9, Two-Spear, and maybe also Kahvi.

MultiMEDEA

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Ekuar was captured by the Trolls when he and his two companions were children. I assume they were guarded around the clock. If so, I guess that Mekda was never allowed enough contact with either of the boys to conceive a child. (Not sure why Guttlekraw didn't think to use them as breeding stock for more Rockshapers - his cruelty knew no bounds.)



By the time Rayek freed him, Ekuar was older than Savah. The two of them lived with the Go-Backs for a few years, and were intimate with them. The Go-backs aren't much into nuclear family structure. So I wonder if Ekuar is capable of fathering children, and if any of the Go-Backs are his offspring.





Lots of interesting ideas, especially that Ekuar might have direct descendants among the Go-Backs. Or, maybe that the trolls did try to breed the trio but for some reason (infertility, lack of Recognition, Mekda being malnourished and mistreated during adolescence, etc.) there were no rockshaper babies for them. Those could make for cool Grab-bag fodder. Smile

Embala

There IS a story about Mekda being pregnant during her long captivity!

Nightsea's story "Still" in the grab-bag of July 2009

Sky1275

If you guys have read any of the prose novelization anthologies, Blood of the Ten Chiefs. Tanner, the youngest son Freefoot was a child born out recognition and so was his older brother..... His half brother Hawkcatcher, Freefoot's oldest, was his only child born through recognition..... and he wasn't raised with the wolfriders, he was a goatrider! BotTC volume 4: Against th Wind; chapter Firstborn.



I know that some don't like to accept the actual novels, I like to think of them like the Dead Sea Scrolls.... Many churches don't like to accept them either, but they exist, they provide a deeper insight, and they help us as EQuester "historians" fill in the gaps. Plus they provide enough speculation to bring out some awesome points and debates!!

Vojira

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Those could make for cool Grab-bag fodder. Smile

You want stories that are basically torment/tortur fics in the Grab-bag threads?Eep. (Unless people to decide to make it Au's and give them all happy endings)
I had enough problems with image Embala made for 'Still'. No offence meant. ^^ Sorry.


On the whole 'too old to Recognize' issues:
It makes sense to me the Wolfriders would at some point become unable to reproduce when and if they reach an high age.

In my mind, Purebloods likely can Recognize whenever it hits them.
Wolfriders just stop at certain age due to their biology. (just my opinion.)

I think I saw somebody mention Selnac and the issues she had with Recognition.

Years back there was an thread that theorized Recognition had some problems in the beginning, such as misfiring.

The ideas on that thread made great sense to me and I've always thought it was just Recognition being an absolute asshat/misfiring. I mean, Selnac was an healer. She knew wasn't going to have any more children. (Book says so itself.)

lunakat

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http://www.elfquest.com/comic_viewer.php?fd=/gallery/OnlineComics/OQ/OQ13/_Original%20ElfQuest%20-%2013_page=1#_29#

But I think other mentions are in BoTC (comics and novels), NB #9, Two-Spear, and maybe also Kahvi.





I don't think I'm convinced. That link just mentions Timmorn- and he was an anomaly. The others are also odd cases. Two Spear's lifemate, Willowgreen, was a healer. And healers have control over that (Rain and leetah). Kahvi... a goback. Somehow they turned recognition off.



I think it's possible for elves to breed without it- the GoBacks do it. But something changed about them to allow it. Maybe the fact that their lifespans were so short- and they evolved to cope. But most elves really do seem to need

recognition for females to be fertile. it must, in some way, trigger fertility. It may not be the only way to trigger it, but that does seem to be it's function.

MultiMEDEA

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You want stories that are basically torment/tortur fics in the Grab-bag threads?Eep. (Unless people to decide to make it Au's and give them all happy endings)

I had enough problems with image Embala made for 'Still'. No offence meant. ^^ Sorry.






Honestly, I want intriguing themes--intelligently and skillfully explored--for the Grab-bag. Smile

Vojira

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Honestly, I want intriguing themes--intelligently and skillfully explored--for the Grab-bag. Smile



I see your point. XD

Startear

Who was the last Wolfrider to have a child outside recognition? I know that Oakroot/Tanner isn't a child of recognition. But are there any other cases from that time or later of this happening? (Not counting Pike here.)



I also have to say that I love the irony of how viciously Skyfire fought to be chief because she was born inside recognition, but her child, Freefoot isn't just that.

Sky1275

What about Wing and Mender? I was always unclear if Woodlock and Rainsong kept recognizing after Newstar, like Moonshade and Strongbow did with all their kids, or since Mender and Wing and Newstar are so close in age, maybe they recognized once for oldest. Rainsong is Pike's sister and I was led to believe Rain recognized her mom. Therefore I just assumed Rainsong and Woodlock didn't need to rely on recognition only. I guess that some elven women are super fertile, like Rainsong and some apparently have fibroids or something else that hinders reproduction, like Nightfall... Which would explain why recogniton never came naturally for her.

LivietheLurker

According to the quote in SaBM #1, pg. 23, continued on pg. 24:



http://www.elfquest.com/comic_viewer.php?fd=/gallery/OnlineComics/SABM/SABM01/_Siege at Blue Mountain - 1_page=1#_23#



it looks like all Rainsong's and Woodlock's children were born of Recognition. I also believe that Wendy has said something to that effect, though I can't remember where. Rainsong and Woodlock had so many children in such a short space of time because of Madcoils attack. So many tribemembers were lost that they experienced a babyboom of sorts.



This quote in KotBW also suggests that all their children were products of Recognition:



http://www.elfquest.com/comic_viewer.php?fd=/gallery/OnlineComics/KOBW/KOBW04/_Kings of the Broken Wheel - 4_page=1#_17#

MultiMEDEA

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Who was the last Wolfrider to have a child outside recognition?







Skywise, for sure. Perhaps Pike?

MultiMEDEA

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it looks like all Rainsong's and Woodlock's children were born of Recognition. I also believe that Wendy has said something to that effect, though I can't remember where. Rainsong and Woodlock had so many children in such a short space of time because of Madcoils attack. So many tribemembers were lost that they experienced a babyboom of sorts.





Really, the only kid of theirs that logic applies to is Wing. Newstar was already well along her way during the attack, and Mender was born several years after in the relative safety of the Sun Village. If the the whole 'we gotta have babies to replenish the tribe' argument really held water, the unattached Wolfriders should have been Recognizing Sun Folk right and left. Happy

Trollbabe

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I also believe that Wendy has said something to that effect, though I can't remember where. Rainsong and Woodlock had so many children in such a short space of time because of Madcoils attack. So many tribemembers were lost that they experienced a babyboom of sorts.




I remember that, too. I can't recall if it was the Elfquest Gaetherum, or someplace else. Cutter and Leetah had the first set of twins known to either of their tribes, which would support this postwar-baby-boom theory. The timing of these births is quite close together, in context of Elves who live for centuries.

nevaratoiel

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Skywise, for sure. Perhaps Pike?



I thought it was Tyleet. I mean Redlance and Nightfall never really recognised, they just willingly exchanged soulnames.... I think.

LivietheLurker

The last Wolfrider to have - or at least sire - a child outside of Recognition is Pike. He never Recognized Krim, but they still have their son Sust. Of course, Sust could be Skot's child, but if Sust's looks are anything to go by, Pike is his sire.

lunakat

Both Skywise and Pike produced offspring with GoBacks. Tyleet was born with the help of Leetah. I think that Pike was definitely the last Wolfrider (so far) to parent a child outside of recognition.

LivietheLurker

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Really, the only kid of theirs that logic applies to is Wing. Newstar was already well along her way during the attack, and Mender was born several years after in the relative safety of the Sun Village. If the the whole 'we gotta have babies to replenish the tribe' argument really held water, the unattached Wolfriders should have been Recognizing Sun Folk right and left. Happy







Not quite. Recognition demands perfect genetic compatability, and if there were no such elves in Sorrow's End (aside from Leetah that is) Recognition just wouldn't happen. As for Mender being born several years later, it was extremely quick in the elves terms. Even in "normal" times of danger there was generally more of a gap between siblings.

lunakat

The series is mostly about the Wolfriders- so we've seen more of them in general than most of the other tribes... but we've seen Sunfolk recognize (Toorah and Suntoucher come to mind), as well as Wavedancers. Apparently Gliders used to recognize.. before the mountain got too crowded and/or Winnowil flipped.

LivietheLurker

In New Blood Dodia (a Sun villager/Jack-Wolfrider) Recognized Door (a Glider). Otherwise... I'll try making a list of all the Recognitions we've seen. If I forget any, feel free to chip in. I'll start with the Original Quest, that's the only place where there's any alternative other than Wolfrider/Wolfrider.

Cutter/Leetah.
Dewshine/Tyldak.
(Nightfall/Redlance - sort of).
Newstar/Lutei
Wing/Behtia
Dart/Serrin
Scouter/Tyleet
Dodia/Door (No Wolfriders!)
Sunstream/Brill

I haven't included Recognitions were there was no alternative other than Recognizing a tribemate, so I haven't included Suntoucher's and Toorah's Recognition, Bearclaw's and Joyleaf's or Skimback's and Sandsparkle's.

Otherwise I can't think of any. Looks like there's high percentage of Wolfriders...

Vojira

O_o wow. Hoped I was wrong on that.

Embala

It's sort of logical that Wolfriders wouöd Regognize more often - they are mortal!



Either the mortality brings a higher probability to Recognize by some biological reason or Recognition sees advantage in mortilitiny and hits more often. Otherwise the mortal elves - as long as they depend on Recognition - would most likely have died out long ago.



Their life period would have been simply too short to wait for the "ablsolute perfect match" - even without the special dangers of lifestyle.

Embala

Another thought ...
When Anatim / Toorah was a perfect genetical match - why did it take so long for them to Recognize? Same for Joyleaf / Bearclaw. There MUSt be a second influnce besides granting a perfect chid - the need for a child.

MultiMEDEA

What I really want to see is a Go-Back get Recognized. They've got plenty of good genetics running through them.

Vojira

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What I really want to see is a Go-Back get Recognized. They've got plenty of good genetics running through them.

I was going to ask: Doesn't Rayek basically say they don't?
In the Danish version I read he talks about how the Go-Backs go for quantity instead of quality. (Not sure where that is.) Mind, it's been ages since I read it so I might remember it completely wrong.
Ignore my rambling. XD

Embala

I remember similar, Vojira - but the fact that they DO not Recognize to reproduce does not neccessarily mean tht they CAN not Recognize.

Vojira

The notion I got from it was he saw them as being basically worthless.
(Then again, the Danish version might just be out to paint Rayek as jerk.)

Embala

Basically - the Coneheads stopped to Recognize on their Homeworld - stopping reproduction. They returned to it when there was reason.

The Go-Backs stopped to Recognize, too - but with reversed effect. They reproduced much more. Why shouldn't they be able to return to Recognition as well? Even the lack of permanent war could do the trick!

Gypsy_Anna

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The last Wolfrider to have - or at least sire - a child outside of Recognition is Pike. He never Recognized Krim, but they still have their son Sust. Of course, Sust could be Skot's child, but if Sust's looks are anything to go by, Pike is his sire.



Sust is Skot's child. Smile At least, there's strong evidence of it here:
http://elfquest.com/comic_viewer.php?fd=/gallery/OnlineComics/WH/_ElfQuest%20-%20Wild%20Hunt_page=1#_137#

It seems that each tribe of elves has very quickly adapted Recognition to suit their lives. Go Backs don't apparently have Recognition because their lives have been much harder than even the Wolfriders, and they needed quantity to stay alive. It's hinted that the females can control when they get pregnant -- remember Kahvi's quest to find Cutter and get a child from him? She only wanted him for a day or two and then he could go back in wrapstuff. She had to have a reason for such confidence.

lunakat

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It seems that each tribe of elves has very quickly adapted Recognition to suit their lives. Go Backs don't apparently have Recognition because their lives have been much harder than even the Wolfriders, and they needed quantity to stay alive. It's hinted that the females can control when they get pregnant -- remember Kahvi's quest to find Cutter and get a child from him? She only wanted him for a day or two and then he could go back in wrapstuff. She had to have a reason for such confidence.







That makes so much sense now! Female elves obviously aren't fertile every month, the way human beings and other mammals are. (Hence, no menstrual cycle!) They seem to need recognition to trigger fertility. But GoBacks have adapted to have control over their their fertility. They adapted to bypass recognition, and are able to trigger fertility in themselves without it.

sulken

when GoBack females could control their fertility, Krim would probably have had more children...

lunakat

maybe it's not a conscious thing- just something their bodies do.

psychosarah999

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I think it in the novel of Journey to Sorrow's End where Clearbrook says she feels a stillness within herself, and doesn't think she will have more chldren. Bearclaw was pretty old for a Wolfrider when he recognised Joyleaf though.







They didn't regcognize

psychosarah999

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Well, maybe reproduction is easier to males than females. Although, it makes me wonder... How old Joyleaf was when she gave birth to Cutter?

And yeah, I had completely forgotten Tyldak, although the whole tribe of the Gliders had difficulties to reproduce, because they did not get hurt or die. And considering really old elves like Savah and Ekuar, I just guess they are so old and experienced that it is hard to find a soul to match, or so?

As I think of it, Woodlock and Rainsong had their children within a short period. But then again, Moonshade and Strongbow had three kids as well, but within a longer period.





actually mender was borne much later.

psychosarah999

kinda wired if you think about it it is like spirits are mapping out what spirits to join together to get them closer to the stars. maybe chitter and windkin will recognize.

sulken

...the fact, that EQ is basically about the Wolfriders (erh, Cutter), certainly has nothing to do with the fact, that we see mostly Wolfriders recognize :-P

@Firestar: did you mean (in your first post on the page), that Cutter's parents did not recognise?

lunakat

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...the fact, that EQ is basically about the Wolfriders (erh, Cutter), certainly has nothing to do with the fact, that we see mostly Wolfriders recognize :-P



@Firestar: did you mean (in your first post on the page), that Cutter's parents did not recognise?





I like you.

psychosarah999

@catfish: no I meant clearbrook and treestump.

MultiMEDEA

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Not quite. Recognition demands perfect genetic compatability, and if there were no such elves in Sorrow's End (aside from Leetah that is) Recognition just wouldn't happen. As for Mender being born several years later, it was extremely quick in the elves terms. Even in "normal" times of danger there was generally more of a gap between siblings.





Not quite. "...(T)wo genetically ideal elves..." [quoted from the Wolfrider's Guide] isn't the same concept as perfect genetic compatibility. If the elves had to wait for that, probably nobody would get knocked up. Laugh

MultiMEDEA

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@catfish: no I meant clearbrook and treestump.



When did Treestump enter the conversation? Wink When Clearbrook talked about her 'stillness' she was still quite Recognized/lifemated to the still-quite-living One-Eye. Grin

LivietheLurker

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Not quite. "...(T)wo genetically ideal elves..." [quoted from the Wolfrider's Guide] isn't the same concept as perfect genetic compatibility. If the elves had to wait for that, probably nobody would get knocked up. Laugh





Good point. However I can't help but feel that the principle still holds. It's not like genetically ideal elves stumble across each other all the time.

lunakat

Personally, I've always thought it kind of improbable that each elf has a perfect match out there. Rather, it seemed to make sense that recognition happens between two elves who are a pretty darned good match... and that the act of recognizing them binds them irrevocably. And because of that bond, they don't go out and recognize anyone else- even if one of them may someday stumble upon another elf who is also a pretty darned good match.



I think that's why, when two tribes meet up, you get recgnitions. Because the gene pool suddenly has a chance to diversify- and that's a good thing. So the two (or more) best candidates match up- and bam.

MultiMEDEA

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Personally, I've always thought it kind of improbable that each elf has a perfect match out there. Rather, it seemed to make sense that recognition happens between two elves who are a pretty darned good match... and that the act of recognizing them binds them irrevocably. And because of that bond, they don't go out and recognize anyone else- even if one of them may someday stumble upon another elf who is also a pretty darned good match.



I think that's why, when two tribes meet up, you get recgnitions. Because the gene pool suddenly has a chance to diversify- and that's a good thing. So the two (or more) best candidates match up- and bam.





I mostly agree with that, lunakat. But, Joyleaf does imply that an elf can eventually Recognize more than one partner in their lifetime...



http://www.elfquest.com/comic_viewer.php?fd=/gallery/OnlineComics/HY/HY05/_Hidden%20Years%20-%205_page=1#_7#



If Bearclaw had never Recognized in the past,' what she said wouldn't make much sense...and none of the other Wolfriders called her on it. So, it seems like Recognition does its thing when two elves can make a genetically ideal (not necessarily perfect) offspring under the right timing and circumstances.

TrollHammer

By definition, one who is immortal is unchanging and ageless, and therefore age would not have effect on the physical ability to procreate.



It could be argued that the mortals that share lineage with the immortal would not have had their bodies develop a different set of rules out of the blue when dealing with Elvin procreation aspects. If there is a physical reason for a loss in ability, it is due to the wolf blood.



Of course, do we know if Go-Backs are immortal after the wolf was clensed from them by Willowgreen? It seems that they should be, but we never see it. They keep dieing on us fighting the Trolls.



From a metaphysical/philosophical standpoint, however, the older an Elf is (mortal or immortal), the less chances there are to meet new people, and the less chances for "spontainious Recognition" (like Cutter and Leetah). "Non-spontainious Recognition", such as Cutter and Skywise, seem to occur when two individuals have shared everything with themselves already, and spent a long period of time together already. Some couples have even shared soul names without recognition, only to recognise down the road. Again, the longer you are alive, the less chance there is to meet new people, and among those you know already you've already befriended or found adversity with at some point, so you would have already recogised. From this perspective, it's not necessarily AGE that affects ability to recognise, but rather TIME.



One last point: If at some point a mortal (or injured immortal) did come to a point in their lives that their bodies could not bear children, this would not necessarily mean that they could not recognise. Cutter and Skywise could not procreate and still recongised, it follows that the infertil would also be able to recognise, and perhaps do... they might just keep it to themselves.



(Edit)



Thought of one more thing to note while posting elsewhere: if there were "too old" limitations for all Elves, Timmain would have passed that point LONG LONG ago, as the origional High Ones are countlessly older than the time they spent on Abode. Further, it seems that procreation is also an ability that can be "forgotten" and "remembered" among Elves, as the Cone Heads hadn't had children that we know of for a unknown but long period of time.



Also, I'm not sure of this, but it seems that there was a line somewhere that "Recognition" was described at one point to be a mechanism of design to enforce procreation at some point after the crash on Abode. By this reasoning, Timmain would not be bound by it, and may have been the instigator of it, perhaps as a solution to the High-One's infertility?

Trollbabe

If a Go-Back does get too old to procreate, he can always use Vaya-gra.

Embala

Good thoughts, TrollHammer. Being young, meeting new elves more often will help to spark spontanious Recognition. Meeting another tribe will increase the probability - new blood for a rather inbreeding tribe will be helpful to keep the population sane and manifold.

But Recognition does not only pick a genetically promising match - it also picks a time, depending on external influences. "Recognition at first sight" is only one facet of the whole picture.
We have seen old lifemates Recognize (Anatim/Toorah, Bearclaw/Joyleaf) and elves who were probably lovemates (Woodlock/Rainsong) or rivals (Buckthorn/Hummer) before. Concentrating on one another very much seems to encourage Recognition, threatening or survived dangers are like a catalyst ... and loss of life in the tribe almost grants new Recognition(s).

The way I see it Recognition is not only for the genetically best match for a child - but for the best available match when a child is needed. Recognition grants best possible offsprings - and keeps the population in balance. Woodlock and Rainsong might have never Recognized without Madcoil's fatal attack - or much later.

Recognition as both birth control and genetic improvement makes much sense for me when I look at the Coneheads.
- They are immortal.
- The live in limited space (first the planet, later the sphere).
- An immortal population that reproduces by will or chance must explode and inevitably destroy their basis of life.
Developing an internal birth control is a logical solution - and when the population is stable reproduction will come to an halt. And WHEN reproduction is rare and offsprings are precious - THEN they should be the best of the best. Recognition grants both.

When you look at it this way it's self-evident that the High Ones started to reproduce shortly after the crash. Their numbers were decimated. There was more than enough space. The hostile environment "promised" more death.
The Coneheads never were infertile - their reproduction system was in hibernation. And after the crash was need of children - the systems "reloaded".

Then - why havn't the Firstcomers and their children Recognized from the start? Instead they had many offsprings out of Recognition. In my opinion the existing system of Recognition was working - it simply switched the mode. The need of new life was so urgent that the rule wasn't "take the best chance" but "take any chance you can get". And only after there was a viable number of elves genetically best matches became important again.
It was even logical that Timmorn was the first to Recognize - his mixed blood made genetically fitting matches a requirement for physically and mentally sane offsprings.

Recognition as birth control and genetical enhancemet ... let's look at the recent tribes:

Wolfriders
A comparably small number of long-living elves in hardly limited, dangerous environment - there were Recognitions on a regular basis.

Sunfolk
Immortal elves living in rather limited space in a comparably safe environment ... Recognition obviously depended strongly on the number. When the 5 Rootless Ones reached the oasis Savah Recognized Yurek before she was totally matured. In a developed, well populated Sunvillage Anatim and Toorah Recognized at comparably old age. And at the time the Wolfriders arrived birth was rare - a well working healer made "replacements" almost unnecessary.

Gliders
Immortal elves living in the strictly limited space in almost absolute safety of Blue Mountain. And an "almighty" healer made sure that few accidents didn't cause any loss of life. There was no need for Winnowill to mess with the fertility of the Gliders to keep them barren - Reproduction had to come to a natural halt. Offsprings would have destroyed the balance.

Go-Backs
A small number of (possibly) immotal elves who live at full risk - loss of lives is frequent and high. There are lots of replacements needed and Recognition is switching mode again - back to "take every chance you can get". That's why I think that Go-Backs are still able to Recognize - but their lifestyle made it unimportant.

Wavedancers
The conditions are similar to the Wolfriders - and there are Recognitions on a regular basis. I'm not quite sure - do they have children out of Recognition as well?


For me Recognition, infertility and reproduction by chance are part of the same system. And it does not depend on age (except for the Wolfriders maybe) but on necessity and fitting matches.

Watershaper

Looks like a good explanation for the different situation.

TrollHammer

Embala, your system makes a lot of sense, and it implies a couple things to me. If Recognition is detrmined by necessity on a community level, perhaps the community actually "decides" unconsiously on a psychic level what "makes sense" for the tribe, almost as though there is a mini Sunstream (non physical, just a way of looking at it) at work in the commu.ity. It makes me wonder how messed up Recognition could get if Suntop/Sunstream opens up the channels and combines all Elves into a global community.

The only issue I find is that it seems like the firstcomers/high ones had a difficult time initially, with Vol almost seeming to be an experiment insteat of a child, and the other first born being mixed blood outside the Elf race. Timmorn does fit as a necessity, though, after Timmain shows how useful her wolf form was. It also seems to me that the High Ones would have inown full well how thier race worked, and if it were possible, it would seem to me that they all had worked together so closely and intimately for so long, it would seem as though they might not even realize when there was a recognition.

Had another thought but lost it.

Another implication to me seems that this becomes a contributing issue with Trolls on board. Regardless of the method of reproduction among Preservers (recognition or genetic manipulation responsible for their apparent sterility), they were immortal and did not need to, but the Trolls have no method of population control onboard ship, therefore either they arent immortal (as I always though, and "immortality" or at least extreme long livedness developed around Old Magotty's generation) and their population was controlled by birth rate (either naturally or more likely by seperation of sexes by the cone heads) or they are immortal and the coneheads were dumping troublemakers out into space. Either way, once the prototrolls attained a certain level of understanfing aboit what was going on around them they would become bitter or enraged that they were not granted immortaility or treated so badly as to be killed off. Tying in with a different
Post thread, this too shows that their family ties were strong from before the crash, as they would feel the loss of each member (whether it be through old age or High Ones selection), and observe that the other servants of the palace never lost any kin. I can also see them being unwilling to give up procreation (growth of family), and therefore denied immortaility by the high ones out of
Necessity as living space was limited.

Trollbabe

I keep thinking there was an early Wolfrider, or Elf among the Wolfriders, who had some kind of recognition after she was too old to conceive. She tried to conceive with several males, to no avail. She finally drowned herself. Did I imagine that?

Saint_Parallelogram

I think it was an early BOTC Story where an elf became so upset that she didn't know the full soul name of her daughter that she committed suicide. I could be wrong, all my books are in boxes in my closet.

RichardPini

Saint_Parallelogram said: I think it was an early BOTC Story


With regard to at least some of the BoTC prose stories, you might want to give a quick scan to the "Canon" thread I posted a few days ago. Particularly the bit about having other people contribute.

lunakat

But the "Journey to Sorrows End" novel was written by Wendy, right? Wouldn't that make it canon? Maybe Wolfriders hit a form of menopause?

RichardPini

lunakat said: But the "Journey to Sorrows End" novel was written by Wendy, right? Wouldn't that make it canon?


Yes, that's true.

lunakat said: Maybe Wolfriders hit a form of menopause?


I'm not sure how this relates to the previous sentence. Where in "JtSE" does it speak of "elfin menopause"? (Not saying it doesn't, but it's not coming to mind at the moment.)

lunakat

I thought that was where Clearbrook's comment about having "felt a stillness" in her regarding childbirth came from? I always took that to mean she had experienced some form of menopause. I just figured that came from mixing with wolves. But then... is Clearbrook that much older than Moonshade? I don't know. I assumed she was the oldest female Wolfrider...

Heather

The only place I can think that "elfin menopause" is mentioned is in the big Gatherum. When Clearbrook is described it says "Her instincts tell her she's past bearing children. If that is so, then the elfin equivalent of menopause has less to do with biology than psychology."

Tam

I thought the comment was in one of the comics. It's likely mentioned in a few places.

MrsGrizzley

So far as I'm aware, the comment from Clearbrook was ONLY made directly in the novelization.

And guys, it's not stated as being fact, only Clearbrook's opinion. She could very well be WRONG and I, for one, would rejoice for her.

In fact, I would campaign for exactly that! Give Clearbrook another daughter to raise!!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!! Pretty please??? With sugar and fanfics on top?

PPPPPPPPPLEASE, ELFPOP!!! *giggles at the memory of Roger Rabbit*

Tam

I swear it's in a comic somewhere...this is gonna drive me nuts.

Heather

Tam said:
I swear it's in a comic somewhere...this is gonna drive me nuts.

I don't remember reading it in one of the comics. Just in Wendy's character descriptions from the Big Gatherum.

Tam

I still have an image in my head of it appearing in the comic...not said by Clearbrook directly, but in one of the yellow panel boxes.

Then again, I have a vivid imagination and my brain could be tricking me. Still, it's a good excuse to go through my graphic novels...

Trollbabe

You could always give Clearbook one of the kids that Khorbasi saved.

MrsGrizzley

You *might* be remembering a scene from the Shards timeline when Clearbrook and Treestump stayed behind to guard the others as they fled from the "Peace Hounds". I seem to remember the idea being repeated then, but I still say that it's a matter of her psychology not giving her body enough credit.

I STILL say that she can have another child, and it would be wonderful.

RichardPini

Here's the deal. What Clearbrook said, back when, was that she had an instinct that she was done with having cubs. Where did that notion come from? There are two possible sources. The first, as some have speculated, is psychological. Unlike all other elves on the World of Two Moons, the Wolfriders are mortal (even if they can be long lived). And, like we humans who also age, and who feel the emotional effects of the process, a mortal elf can come to a point in his or her lifespan where living simply isn't about children any more.

The second possible source is physiological. Again, it connects to aging. Recognition, if you remember, is an impulse that happens when two elves telepathically and subconsciously "understand" each other's genetics, and are driven to realize (again, not consciously at first) the need to create a new life that combines the best traits of both parents. It's got nothing to do with love or maternal/paternal instinct. So if, deep down on the genetic level, an elf "knows" she is past the age where she is able to be a good parent, that may turn down the volume on the brain's Recognition signal.

Having said all that, the question remains, is Clearbrook finished with cubs? Who knows? She's an elder, yes. So she may have made peace (emotionally) with an end to motherhood, and that could filter down to calm her her Recognition reptile (remember those metaphorical beasties?). On the other hand, she's still a very lively and vital elf, and it's not impossible that there's yet a genetic match out there that would trump the other considerations of age or temperament.

Tam

Here's hoping she doesn't Recognize again.

Not because I don't think she'd be a great mom, or have another amazing child...but because I think it would just be wish fulfillment for the fans at this point. She's made peace with getting older and not living for children anymore. It's sad that she lost a daughter, but that's life...sometimes it's sad. And it's not like Chitter/Freetouch's birth erased Crescent's presence for Moonshade, but if the same happened for Clearbrook, I'd be like "this has happened before..." AND we don't even know anything about her daughter...she doesn't even officially have a name. :/ I'd rather know more about her.

Clearbrook's at peace, and she's found happiness with Treestump and fulfillment helping him realize his dreams. It seems like enough for her.

Tavie

RichardPini said: Here's the deal. What Clearbrook said, back when, was that she had an instinct that she was done with having cubs. Where did that notion come from? There are two possible sources. The first, as some have speculated, is psychological. Unlike all other elves on the World of Two Moons, the Wolfriders are mortal (even if they can be long lived). And, like we humans who also age, and who feel the emotional effects of the process, a mortal elf can come to a point in his or her lifespan where living simply isn't about children any more.

The second possible source is physiological. Again, it connects to aging. Recognition, if you remember, is an impulse that happens when two elves telepathically and subconsciously "understand" each other's genetics, and are driven to realize (again, not consciously at first) the need to create a new life that combines the best traits of both parents. It's got nothing to do with love or maternal/paternal instinct. So if, deep down on the genetic level, an elf "knows" she is past the age where she is able to be a good parent, that may turn down the volume on the brain's Recognition signal.

Having said all that, the question remains, is Clearbrook finished with cubs? Who knows? She's an elder, yes. So she may have made peace (emotionally) with an end to motherhood, and that could filter down to calm her her Recognition reptile (remember those metaphorical beasties?). On the other hand, she's still a very lively and vital elf, and it's not impossible that there's yet a genetic match out there that would trump the other considerations of age or temperament.


I love replies like these - meaty and insightful and FROM THE SOURCE.

There should be a way to "pin" posts like this from Elfpop so everyone can see them more easily.

(Note I said posts "LIKE THIS". His wicked two-sentence tease posts and awful puns can stay buried in threads, I say. ;))

Heather

Tam said: Here's hoping she doesn't Recognize again.

Not because I don't think she'd be a great mom, or have another amazing child...but because I think it would just be wish fulfillment for the fans at this point. She's made peace with getting older and not living for children anymore. It's sad that she lost a daughter, but that's life...sometimes it's sad. And it's not like Chitter/Freetouch's birth erased Crescent's presence for Moonshade, but if the same happened for Clearbrook, I'd be like "this has happened before..." AND we don't even know anything about her daughter...she doesn't even officially have a name. :/ I'd rather know more about her.


I agree that I hope she won't as well, for basically the same reasons. However, I hope to never know anything about the child that was lost. Having a mystery there is something I always enjoy. I don't want all the answers.

Tam

Heather said: However, I hope to never know anything about the child that was lost. Having a mystery there is something I always enjoy. I don't want all the answers.


I am satisfied never knowing anything about her as well...I would love a name, but, like Clearbrook, I'm at peace not knowing. ;) I just mean, if I had to pick one, I'd rather know about her daughter than have her have another child.

Trollbabe

I agree with Tam. We don't know much about Clearbrook's daughter. She might have died at birth, or soon after, like Cheipar. But neither Clearbrook nor One-Eye seemed to display the sense of loss that Moonshade and Strongbow exhibited over Crescent. The birth of Chitter was helping to resolve that grief, although obviously, one daughter can never replace another.

Clearbrook has a lot more to offer outside of motherhood, as an individual, and as Treestump's lifemate. Nor could I see Treestump raising a cub while mastering his newfound craft.

Heather

Trollbabe said: But neither Clearbrook nor One-Eye seemed to display the sense of loss that Moonshade and Strongbow exhibited over Crescent.

We also don't know if One-Eye was the father. Again, in Wendy's character description it says the father was "probably by a different recognized lifemate." So the possibility remains that she was lifemated to another. Perhaps they both died at the same time?

RedheadEmber

Where are those describtions you talk of? Nothing about Clearbrook's daughter possibly being sired by another than One-Eye/Woodhue in the bios on the homepage.

Heather

These are the ones written by Wendy that were published in the Big Elfquest Gatherum.

RedheadEmber

Heard about that, does it still exist?

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