ELFQUEST
FORUM ARCHIVE     ABOUT EQ     READ ONLINE     SHOP    
ABOUT     READ     SHOP    

Card Game Mechanics (old)

TrollHammer

Might be getting too far ahead on threads, but here's the thread strickly pertaining to the mechanics of gameplay. What you want to see, different possiblities, issues, and whatnot. Your ideas are important!



I had been intending to leave my opinions out until.I.heard from.others, but I got wrapped up with a new chain of.thought and forgot my old.ideas, and ended up posting on a way to make a version of the game. In order to get the most out of your ideas, I recommend that if yoi have any vague or specific ideas or elements (or whole.games) post.them now before reading the rest of the thread. This way, if you are like me, you wont forget what you were going to post. Then, after you get your ideas down, read what I and others have posted and comment on those ideas. I hope everyone has thick skins and we can all work together to get this done and fun for everyone.

Goat_Biter

Well, you will need to have some type of power source for each group. The trolls would have ore, the elves could use forest as their source of power, and for the humans, they could use plains.

Alternatively you could have Trolls be earth, Elves be air, and Humans be water or fire.

I don't know enough about the series to give each group their own item specific power, such as ore for the trolls, but I think that might be the best route to go.

I suppose the first thing is to identify the different groups, which so far as I can tell is the elves, trolls, and humans. We could have different groups for wood elves and mountain elves, and there will be the occasional oddball individual that is multiple groups.

Then we need to make different classes and abilities of each group. Like having leadership bring an attribute that increases all attacks by 10%, or increases number of attacks per turn.

We also need to set up guidelines for each characters statistics. i.e. how many power sources it takes to play that character, how much damage it can do, how much damage it can take, what it is strong against, what it is weak against, what its special abilities are, and any limitations that it might have.

Also a comprehensive list of the main characters would be helpful.

TrollHammer

Dound an old character list that Ill upload in an hour or so. Its pretty comprehensive but not complete.

Affiliation, i figured, might be along tribe lines, so you could, if desired, have elves vs elves (inevitable if it is able to go multiplayer), with some "non affiliated" such as Two Edge.

One of my problems is Im stuck on Star Trek mechanics, having stat against stat, or stats and skills required to meet a game goal. Resources arent used in that game, but Im familiar with it. It was suggested by "PC" elsewhere that resources could be gathered, like a counter system, in which Elves hunt, Trolls mine, and etc. It would be tribe specific, and this system would open the door to trading... X amount of meat for a metal good, and the like. Hmm... Maybe something along the lines of Age of Empires, where players could form aliences with other players and trade or have one support the other?

The biggest thing Im hitting my head against the wall with is game goals.... Its "Elf QUEST"... Which tells me the game should have something more than just fighting (though there will be that). We have many quests Cutter and his band went on, but some of those only apply to Elves, or specifically to the Wolfriders, or to an individual... How to make it so that multiple races can compete in the same world for the same quests and not have a half dozen quest cards, half dozen characters, resources, and possibly locations? It would be cluttered fast.

Still, we can outline the basic cards suggested so far:
Character
Quest
Resources (or a counter)
Treaty/alliance
action (hunt, mine, etc)

Also we can derive logical cards, such as needed items:
Weapon
tool
armor
clothing
jewelry (skywises lodestone)

finish.thought later...

TrollHammer

Had a thought when trying to post mounts (the new thread was lost. I'll replace it later this weekend)



How do we deal with crisis? Most crisis happen to the wolfriders, but don't always have to, but how to treat them and how to make them apply to all races/tribes?



Here's a list of examples:

Fire (burn down the forest)

Two-Edge's Forest Cutters

Blue Mountain's metamophesis

Palace crash (initial)

Palace crash (Shards)

Palace Theft (Rayak)

Trapped in the Burning Wastes

Goat_Biter

If you generalized the crises then it would be easier to work them in. It doesn't do anyone good to be stuck in the burning wasteland, and natural disaster could be an earthquake that collapses caves, or it could be fire that burns down a forest. In both cases it reduces the resources, and possibly kills a few characters.

TrollHammer

I was also pondering seasons... You could stock up on resources (food) to last the winter, and if you run out, you start losing characters. Trolls were tricky, as their resource might be ore, then I realized their tough season isnt winter, its spring, when the caves flood! They would have to rely on pre-mined ore to keep things going, as they will br too busy pumping water to mine more?

Special characters work for trading, perhaps? Bearclaw and Cutter would be able to trade with forest trolls for blades and tools. Gliders could trade with Two Edge for weapons,

of course, another thought arises: what if the game was balanced like DnD? Each "class" has their own way of playing depending on their strengths and weaknesses, but all are balenced to the others in their own way.

Anyway, back to the seasons, perhaps certain disasters can happen only during certain seasons, drought, famine, fire... All match up with summer, while floods and late frosts (sunfolk) can occur during spring. This would be a difficult aspect to work out, but unique.

Of.course, disaster cards could also be simplified by just having it be an event played by any player, and each disaster has a balanced bit different set of conditions that, if a player is prepared for, they have little problems, if they are not as prepared, its harder to make it though. No disaster shoild wipe out a player, but you could be seriously wishing you had traded with so and so or something. Hmm....

TrollHammer

Ok, here is a link of a "how to" for game mechanics. Im reading it now, and Im sure my thoughts will be flavored by it. Its up to you if you wish to read.it or let your mind wander...

http://lackeyccg.com/ccgdesign.html

I cant make EQ popups work on my phone so I cant link that, youll have to copy and paste

TrollHammer

(adding more as I think of it and as I have time)

Had a thought while reading the tutorial. How about something like having the goal be control of the Palace? It would allow any number of players, they could fight, there could be obsticles, and all races have an interest in it after a fashion.

A rough sketch would be each player starting with a hand full.of cards. A player would have to get a certain number of characters with a certain number of abilities to make an attempt at getting to the palace. A player would also have to have a certain number of characters IN the palace (without an enemy) for a number of turns in order to win the palace.. At any point another player could attack.

Attacks can only occur where there is presence. I figure three zones: "home" or where you deploy to, Outside the palace, and Inside the palace. A player has to enter the palace to fight others inside the palace.

It should take one turn to enter or leave the palace. It should also take at least a full turn to move from the holt to the palace, but it seems like it should take longer. The big thing is that any player can place an obsticle (problem to be solved) between zones. An obsticle placed between Inside and Outside the palace affects all players, while obsticles placed between a player and Outside the palace only affect that player.


Personal note: i have forgotten any preconcieved ideas I had origionally a few years ago about the game. Origionally I was trying to put together a game that could be mixed with others

TrollHammer

Not sure how resources (hunting, mining) will work with the above, other than perhaps to limit when impeeding card can be deployed (run the risk of a game ending without playing much more than two or three cards which isnt fun), or perhaps need resources to bring special characters or more than a certain number (less than what is needed to get to the palace).

The "why" of the game is importance and might tear the version I suggested apart:

In the story, Humans and Trolls simply want to keep Elves out of.the palace. I guess the best way to do this is to beat the Elves there (as they did), but it seems flimsy to me as a game element.

Obviously Elves.want the Palace, bit for different reasons. Go Backs and Wolf Riders and Sun Villagers want a home, Gliders want to merge the Palace with the Great Egg. I dont know.what to do with the Wave Dancers.

The issue with this are:

If alliances are allowed, it seems that the three 'friendly' tribes would always band together, and Elves and Trolls would not. Sure thats true to the story in general, but it is unbalanced. Like mentioned earlier, perhaps each faction (tribe) needs certain strengths and weaknesses that make them special, perhaps clash with others. I dont know. Anyone have input?

Also, I like the idea of having the opertunity for a mixed deck of Trolls, Humans, and Elves, but this is even more difficult to determine "why", and if there wasnt some mechanic to stop it a player woukd just take the best cards from each race and mix them together.

One little mechanic that would be interesting but I dont know how it would go over, is to have each character have story based phobias or prejudices against working with certain others.

For instance, Forest Trolls and Wolfriders get along (sometimes, until someone gets Greedy) but Go Backs and Frozen Trolls are mortal enemies. Cutter and Rayak dont get along, Strongbow and Winnie would never work togethwr (winnie would never work with any wolfrider for that matter) and so on. Could have a thing on the card like Star Trek that shows what races each character is allowed to align with, and specific characters they wont would be stated on the card. This alone would be a limit on power characters (good) and make alliances tricky:

Example, four people are playing, one Frozen Mountain, one Picknose's clan, one Wolfrider, and one Go-Back. Wolfrider and Go Back try to align, but say one of the generic Go Backs has a thing against Wolfriders, and a wolfrider character has an issue with a particular Go Back. In order to align, either bith Go Back characters must "leave" (set aside out of play, and can make another attempt at the palace later with a non aligned group), or the predjudiced Go Back and the wolfrider with personal issues must leave.tribes (like previous) and make seperate attempts later as the game allows.

I guess the balance here is, if a player gets a certain nimber of their own tribe in the palace, they win. Say its a high number, like 20, and a minimum number for an attempt is 10. Then allied players can make an attempt early (5 each), but neither will have enough to take the palace. It would still take like two more non aligned attempts to get enoigh characters in to win, all.the while others are fighting with you... Could get interesting!

Another aspect Ive thought about but not sure how unbalanced it would be is to have certian characters, like Winnie and Rayak, be able ti make an attempt on thr palace alone. It still only makes one character (out of 20) but then it takes the palace itself out of play for like 5 turns or something (Rayak goes to the future, Winnie crashes and it has to be put back together) anyway, point is, some characters can steal the palace for a limited nimber of turns to throw a wrench in someone else making an attempt, and turns the "outside" zone into a bloody battlefield as players try to have their characters in control of the area for when the palace come back.

One issue is that under some circumstances thr palace could end up with a winning number of character cards from more than one player, a "tie" condition. Would people ignore teamwork if they get no bennifit in the end of the game? But if team victory is an option then not only would players always align, they would not have as much fun, especially in a two player game.

That brings up two other issues: would a two player game be as balanced as a multi player game for tournament use? This also makes a solitare variant difficult ( not impossible, you could just seed all the trap/impeed cards kn the table and a player would have to get the proper characters together to defeat each one. Still not as fun as playing with an opponent, but doable).

Still need everyone else's input on what they want to see in a game, or perhaps a whole different version?

TrollHammer

One thing I failed to clarify as an idea: in this method of gameplay i have been pondering, the "palace" could be any of the following

a single card that sets in middle of the table

a.card.for.each person set in the far front of the player, pwrhaps with special faction/tribal boosts.specific to each player

or an "understood", placing cards at three levels at each player's seat, the holt being closest to the player, the farthest being in the palace, and midrange being outside thr palace.

Each method has its up sides and down sides. Having a card there is a good visual, an in the instance of the aforementioned special characters stealing the palace, allows it to removed outside of the active playing area while it is stolen, but having only one card becomes a mess when multiple players have tgeir own characters under the same palace card.

Having multiple palace cards, one for each player, fixes the jumbled mess problem, but can make it hard to see what is in the palace (still easier to see than one card for all.) this does, however, allow for the use of special palace text for each faction/tribe. Down side is that it gives the illusion that each player is playing for a different palace, and not the same one.

An understood Palace area, with no card, really organizes some things, but loses the visual of the palace and makes it impossible to rrmove the zone from play. A possible.solution is that the player wanting to steal the palace has to.have both the character in the plalce zone, and play an interrupt/event card that plays in center of.the table denoting that the palace and all cards in that zone are out of play.


Anyway, as I said before, this is just my ramblings for a posible game, I prefer to hear someone elses game ideas or hear issues with what has been put forth so far.

Another note: battling has not been discussed on my part because there are many well established methods of fighting and I.feel one of those should be selected, as well.as what healers do, balances for healers (only wolfriders, sunfolk, and neutral/mixed tribes would have healers by default, possibly giving unfair advantage to them over trolls and humans. I figure Go Backs will have a boost when it comes to bringing characters into play over ither elves, and the same could apply for the short lived humans and perhaps prototrolls if we make them)

Lots to figure out!

TrollHammer

Quote:


Well, you will need to have some type of power source for each group. The trolls would have ore, the elves could use forest as their source of power, and for the humans, they could use plains.



Alternatively you could have Trolls be earth, Elves be air, and Humans be water or fire.



I don't know enough about the series to give each group their own item specific power, such as ore for the trolls, but I think that might be the best route to go.




Dont know if anyone can follow my ramblings for the last few days, but the suggestion I have is to have a resource counter (die or counters) in which the number of gatherers at the Holt has direct influence on how fast the resources acrue. Initially each player is able to play three (approx) cards for free. After that, the hunters must hunt, the miners must mine, the farmers must farm (say for each gatherer a point per turn is generated).



For now, if one player leaves a basic gatherer reminant behind in the holt, they will have an easier time getting more characters into the game, but they wont have as many players to make an attempt at the palace (and vice versa). how does that sound? (still undecided if Trolls can only be brought in with Ore, Wolfriders with Game, sunvillagers with Crops... It would make mixed decks difficult, and youd have to figure out a resource for all tribes unique if you wanted to isolate them. The issue is there are more known Elf tribes than other races, so other races.may be at a disadvantage. i also feel that one of the main premisis of ElfQuest is to work together with those not like you, which I interpret as encouraging mixed decks. Of course, we.could have multiple rule sets for such things!)



Quote:
I suppose the first thing is to identify the different groups, which so far as I can tell is the elves, trolls, and humans. We could have different groups for wood elves and mountain elves, and there will be the occasional oddball individual that is multiple groups.



Then we need to make different classes and abilities of each group. Like having leadership bring an attribute that increases all attacks by 10%, or increases number of attacks per turn.



We also need to set up guidelines for each characters statistics. i.e. how many power sources it takes to play that character, how much damage it can do, how much damage it can take, what it is strong against, what it is weak against, what its special abilities are, and any limitations that it might have.



Also a comprehensive list of the main characters would be helpful.



As stated earlier, a list has been posted. You can ad to it if you see something missing.



I agree.that there needs.to be more thought put into the balance of character.cards. That sounds loke a good idea: organize each character type and group and go from there. I kinda ended up doing this in a way with roughing out general cards, but they havent been checked for balance. They are rough drafts to make place holders while working on mechanics, please comment on them.



Quote:


If you generalized the crises then it would be easier to work them in. It doesn't do anyone good to be stuck in the burning wasteland, and natural disaster could be an earthquake that collapses caves, or it could be fire that burns down a forest. In both cases it reduces the resources, and possibly kills a few characters.





I think i.figured out something that fits, if you dont mind checking it out. I basically reduced all the issues the elves came across into a card type "trouble". Some are targetable to a character, some to an area, and some affect everyone. They are mostly.general, but some have specifics.



Well, out of time.again. Ill be back later.tonight and summarize the thoughts I had the last few.days so people dont have to wade through it all. I still want to hear other ideas.

Jeedai

I've seen Two-Egde listed as a possible card elsewhere, but what if he was a mechanic. It IS his m.o. to play two groups against each other in twisted games. Dont know how that would work, tho. I suppose he could be throwing 'troubles' at one or both sides. But it might explain how players playing normally friendly factions would be working against each other for the win.



Quote:
The biggest thing Im hitting my head against the wall with is game goals.... Its "Elf QUEST"... Which tells me the game should have something more than just fighting




What if getting to the Palace IS the quest?



Locations in a way similar to on-planet locals in Star Wars CCG...



So lets say someone plays a "FOREST" card as the immediate terrain. Related cards could be played down on or near it (Father Tree, etc). Or the train could be swapped out for a new one (Jungle, desert, etc). After a set number of rounds or prescribed actions, the PALACE is played down. Representing the end of the quest and maybe final conflict. The number and direction of terrains played through represents the path traveled to find the Palace.



Another option would be each player lays down their side's home/starting location (Father Tree, Howling Rock, blah blah) when the game begins and moves out from there, possibly through more generic locations (Jungle, Swamp, Deep Desert) connected by more 'name' locations.



Solve the 'trouble', move on to the next region, get another 'trouble'.

Jeedai

I was looking over the Character Rough Drafts and was thinking... what if the whole game was based around generic templates instead of canon characters. I'm asking directly because I cant tell based on the rest of this scroll which way things are headed.



"Troll Slave" and "Wolfrider Healer" and "Human Medicine Woman: ____ Tribe" all say kind of what is needed. Boils everything down to the archetypes. And archetypes could be a good thing.



Some thoughts on why this could be a good thing:



There'd be no need to deal with multiple versions 'eras' of canon characters and their differing abilities (Young Cutter vs Chief Cutter vs Cutter Who Can Team Up With Go-Backs Without Another Card) and when you can swap/evolve what. And game balance could be worked out better when not dealing with comparisons of how much better a glider Tyldak is from Rayek, and how much the difference is worth as a game mechanic. (unless this whole thing gets into 'action cost' to play a card/character). And since this is a virtual thing, and not a true CCG access to more powerful cards is a non starter anyway.



It would allow for the niche tribes (wavedancers) and/or non-canon racial types (catriders) to be brought in more easily or faster, compared to working out dozens of specific Wolfriders and sun Villiagers up front. This might get more development support and players if fans can have access to things that push their personal buttons, without being asked to wait for an nth expansion that will never show up if the thing doesn't take off.



It would remove any issues of dealing with official art from the comics. Instead, it could provide the possibility to recruit willing help from fan-artists. (Maybe use someone's PC portrait as the icon of a Go-Back Warrior).



Storytelling within the game, in the form of developing a character. Lets say the Elves deck has cards that represent awakening of a magical power in-story. These could be played on an elf that doesn't already have a magical power, possibly excluding the chiefs. IE your Mountain Elf Scout becomes a Stoneshaper. Reversed, you could do the reverse and add combat effectiveness to a 'pacifist' Treeshaper, without is *having* to be Redlance. You could play it on anyone. Trolls and Humans could have similar deals.



It sidesteps around whether or not the Blue Mountain Gliders and Two-edge are playable, trouble cards, or whatever. Generic Gliders could be whatever the player wants them to be.

TrollHammer

First off, Thanks for joining! good to see more interest, and a fellow gamer. Ill have to look into the other games you mentioned as I have not heard of them. Of course Ive been away from card gaming for a few years.



Quote:


I've seen Two-Egde listed as a possible card elsewhere, but what if he was a mechanic. It IS his m.o. to play two groups against each other in twisted games. Dont know how that would work, tho. I suppose he could be throwing 'troubles' at one or both sides. But it might explain how players playing normally friendly factions would be working against each other for the win.

What if getting to the Palace IS the quest?



I should apologize for the disorder of my posts. Looks like having the palace as the goal instead of attrition or life points might be a good direction to consider.



As to Two Edge, and game mechanics, I figured much the same, however why limit it.to him? I am reminded of one of Embala's (or.someone, again bad memory) collages of Two Edge, Winnowil, and Rayak, the games biggest protagonists. There are smaller ones as well, such as Egg, Tyldak, Khavi, Greymung, Picknose, Guttlekraw, and even the Preservers that perform their own manipulations as well. One thing I have thought about, though, is if we can make the cards sort of universal then it would be possible for different types of games to be played with the same cards, and perhaps an alternate rule.set could be set up to make it more like two edge is controlling the game. It coild also be a solitare variant.



There is another option: have a Two Edge Faction. It would require a whole different set of cards and a lot of thi.king to keep from having stacking power combos if another faction played them, but Two Edge could have his own quest for the palace.

Quote:


Locations in a way similar to on-planet locals in Star Wars CCG...

So lets say someone plays a "FOREST" card as the immediate terrain. Related cards could be played down on or near it (Father Tree, etc). Or the train could be swapped out for a new one (Jungle, desert, etc). After a set number of rounds or prescribed actions, the PALACE is played down. Representing the end of the quest and maybe final conflict. The number and direction of terrains played through represents the path traveled to find the Palace.


Another idea is to have like 6 basic environments that are arranged in a circle at the beginning of the game, and a player has to make it around the ring to get to.the palace. It could be an option to try as long as it doesnt take too long, or inplace of an earlier suggestion if the game is moving too fast. It does reduce the conflict with other players which might make the game less fun. Still, along the Star Wars/ Star Trek/ Monopoly theme, once a player was alone at a location the could swap it with a customized one (resettlement) to mix things up.

Quote:


Another option would be each player lays down their side's home/starting location (Father Tree, Howling Rock, blah blah) when the game begins and moves out from there, possibly through more generic locations (Jungle, Swamp, Deep Desert) connected by more 'name' locations.



This is similar in layout to something mentioned earlier, yet it sparks another idea:

Each player starts with an Environment card on which they build a deck (like Magic's colors, but Im still not gelling with the land resource cards as it makes the game more complex than it needs be), and in their deck could be a Holt card that gains them an advantage if played. Additional Holts could be played at other player's sites.... Hmm, dont know what the point would be. A simple holt card at the player's spot at the table is simple and easy to understand, while doing all that. Just had a thought though: Holt Destruction card. This could be too powerful, though. If it was made.so that cards.could no longer be brought into play but the game still.rolled.on, the outcome is almost inevitable and demoralizing (warned against in the tutorial link above)

Quote:


Solve the 'trouble', move on to the next region, get another 'trouble'.



Would this be played like Star Trek where the trouble cards would be seeded like Delimmas? My opinion, for what its worth, is that this usually results in a two person only game, or the cards get all mixed up and confusing (not as bad as a comouter /virtual game, but physically near impossible). It also requires a lot of game set up, and fixed location cards. My other thought about this is that if there are fixed location cards with dilimmas and packs of tribes moving every which way it might be hard to play as well, but maybe not, we can keep playing with it.



Im going to try once again to put up a summary of a possible rule set later tonight. Ill post summaries of other variations discussed as I understand them and others can correct or comment as they wish, or even post new ideas. When quite a few people are feeling like we have the right main rule.set we can make some test cards and try it out, as well.as nail down card types and whatnot.



Again, great to see more activity!

Skya

I'll be interested to see that summary. I tend to find that it's rather hard to come up with an entire game put together by comity. Having a solid starting point in one person's head and then expanding/beating the snot out of it from there tends to be much more productive.

Generally, I'd ask what kind of game do you want to end up with? If you pull out the mechanics that you're used to and look at other ways of doing things, what do you come up with? Off the top of my head this is where I go:

1) Pull back to an overview. Both players are manipulating characters through their troubles/goals to earn some sort of points based on what they get the characters on the board to do. Where the board can be locations arranged in either a preset pattern, a random pattern or built as a part of game play. In this concept you arent playing a particular tribe/faction but are aiming to get specific goals accomplished based on your deck.

2) Character specific decks instead of tribe specific.

3) Goal oriented decks where you can influence both your characters and the ones that your opponent plays into doing your specific goal.


Things to think about when designing:

Games are more interesting when you interact with the other players on more than an I play the card that counters your card sort of way. How do your opponent's decisions affect your decisions?

Start with enough in play that you arent entirely screwed if you dont get any the first two turns. There are many ways to do this. 1) have a finite amount of resources that you spend over the course of the game, and cards from your deck can replenish them. 2) have cards that you search out of the deck at the start of the game or on the first turn with either some sort of non resource related cost (do a quest for this, add victory requirements) 3) dont have resources. cards play and interact in certain ways and can be played based on what type of other things are out. (my opponent has a red card so I can play this, or there's a forst in play so I can play a "go to the trees")

Anyways this is just my first kinda rambling impresions which I'm sure dont help a lot as it looks like what you really need at this point is focus. Hammer out some of those ideas of yours into something concrete and then decide if they work or not.

TrollHammer

Thanks for the input! Yeah, focus is always my problem, and I've been trying to get a playable CCG out for years, but get hung up on worrying about too many details. I figure a group working on it, focusing souly on EQ, and using Lackey instead of worrying about printing physical cards will help get something done.



Here's what I worked on today:



...Ok, lets see if I can get this summary done this time…



The feel I have for a game would look something like this…



Each player (2-6+) would start with a 60 card deck (rough estimate)



Gain control of the Palace by getting (20) healthy characters (not including mounts) into the palace. Characters engaged in battle, injured, or in wrapstuff do not count toward the total.



Back Story:

The World of Two Moons is in chaos. The Elves are trying to get their Palace back, and everyone else is afraid of what they will do with it! It’s a race against time as Elves, Humans, and Trolls all try to get enough of their own tribes in to block the rest. Even some of the Elves are trying to gain control before other Elf Tribes, as the others may leave them behind!



Each Tribe has drawn lines, befriending some, shunning others, and considering alliances to gain control of the Palace. The Elves wish to make sure their kin are safe, the Trolls wish to break it down for gems, or fear captivity by the Elves, and the Humans, for the most part, simply distrust anything unlike them. (details can change. Point is that everyone wants to gain control of the Palace before the others).





Game Setup:Each player would place a Holt card face up in front of them, close to themselves.



(Some dynamic to select a first player)



Each player shuffles their deck and draws a full hand (say 5 cards for now)



Gameplay:

Each turn consists of:



Add Characters / Perform Healings

Initially, on their turn, a player can play up to three character cards at their holt for free (no resources required) if there are no other characters of their own in play. This is a standing rule, so that if their Quest Party has been wiped out they are able have three characters immediately back in the game (if in hand) without having to worry about resources.

If they have additional characters and resources to bring them into play, additional characters can be played and resource counters reduced accordingly. Each character, item, or mount will require resources unless otherwise stated.

(note, it would be recommended that they play resource gathering cards, such as Miners or Hunters on their first turn to bring up resources faster)

If there are injured characters (wither by trouble or battle), they can be healed at this time. Healing cards (such as Whistling Leaves) can heal one character unless they state otherwise. A character with Healing as a main skill can heal (2 or 3?) characters per turn. A character with Healing as a secondary skill can heal one character per turn. All healers require one turn to heal themselves, and are successful in any healing based on their strength (something like):

Target’s Will + Healer’s Magic greater than 5 to heal a non mortal injury.

Target’s Will + Healer’s Magic greater than 10 to heal a Mortal injury.

Target’s Will + Healer’s Will + Healer’s Magic greater than 20 to heal a KIA (Killed In Action)



Move Characters

A player can move cards one Zone per turn.

The zones, for now, are the Holt, the World, and the Palace (and perhaps outside the palace, if we need another one). Characters can move from Holt to Holt, Holt to World, World to Palace, or the inverse of each of those.

(don’t know if we would allow characters that have just come into play to move, have to discuss. Game will take longer if we have them wait is all this would affect)

The only requirement at this time is that a Quest Party must be a minimum of 10 characters and mounts to leave the Holt. From the Holt, a Party can move to another holt (to attack or join forces), or to the world.

(note: If you don’t leave any gatherers at your holt, you won’t accrue resources as fast!)

Unless we add location cards, the Palace is the center of the table, and the world is the area between the Palace and the player’s holt card. When a Party enters the World, they are considered in the same area as all other Parties in the World, and can fight.



Battle/Action:

Battles can occur between any characters or parties in the same zone. I do not have a battle dynamic yet, but roughly speaking I’d think it would be something like this:

-Declare: Announce your intent to fight. Party vs Party, Party vs Character, or One on One.

-Compare stats: Depending on the battle type, stats are combined and compared. I’m not sure if it’s a simple “player/character with lowest stats loses/dies” or if characters are wounded one turn, and die the next unless healed. This is a key dynamic, as healing is a major part of the story, healing ability is high in some tribes (that interestingly enough have low birth rates, I might add, which is the balance) and non-existant in others. To balance, tribes without healing would have lower resource costs.

-Assess injuries/deaths.

The second dynamic that needs worked over is how magic vs non-magic attacks interact. Personally, I was thinking along the lines of characters with Strength and Skill use Will to combat magic. Magic users could defend against physical attack with Magic and Will…. Actually, as Skill and Magic are the same stat, A combination of Will, Strength and Skill/Magic could be used in such battles, or maybe all battles. Like I said, don’t have it all worked out.

Actions: Actions, such as Rayak or Winnowil stealing the Palace, or whatever else we come up with happens here.



Accrue Resources

At the end of the turn, any healthy gatherers left in the Holt accrue 2 resources to the Resource Counter each. One additional resource point is also added per turn (in case someone can’t draw any resource gatherers) Additional items, characters, or other cards can modify the rate of resource growth. Only Miners, Hunters, and Farmers, (and other resource gathering characters) count as Resource Gatherers. This is also a game balance check, as those races /tribes with good resource gathering or stronger characters will have to be nerfed with higher resource requirements per character. Also, more “useful” cards will need higher resource costs as well (healers and rock shapers would be the highest), with the exception of resource gathering characters (if a player gets nuked by a trouble card or other player, they need to get cards out quick to catch up or get left in the dust).



Play Effects

Any Effect cards, such as Trouble cards that affect a location, or placing a character in Wrapstuff, are played.



Draw Cards

Even up hand to 5 cards.



Next Player



Trouble Cards:

All Trouble Cards are played from hand. Instance cards such as Squirrel Bite can be played at any time. Others can only be played while others are moving (Burning Waste), or at the end of your turn (Palace Theft or Troll Palace Wall).



Blocking Cards:

Blocking Cards, if we come up with them, would also be played from hand, at any appropriate time.



There may be other modifier cards, such as something that boosts a character during one turn, play them from hand to the target during the beginning phase of your turn (Add Character/Healing)



There may be items that are carried with the party, such as Whistling Leaves. They can be used during the Add character/ Healing phase as well.



Locations: I don’t know if Locations will be used. I would like to have them, and others would like them, but with this model I don’t know how they fit in. Some Trouble cards are Locations in and of themselves (Burning Waste). The only ways I see they could be implemented are:



Star Trek/Star Wars style:

A line or circle of cards are placed on the table, and characters must move from one to the next before getting to the palace, or have the Palace be one of these cards. The line can be a fixed number (like Star Trek), or placed from hand before the Move phase. I would recommend that if this is used, a 4-6 location cap is observed, and perhaps a certain number of locations must be placed before characters leave the Holt. Less than 3-4 locations and there’s little point in having them (early Parties wouldn’t have as far to go as later parties). More than 6 and the game will take too long.



Ad Hoc style:

Locations can be placed in the World. Parties or Characters can be announced to be at a specific location, removing them from the World (handy in case the Palace is stolen). Other characters or parties could travel to these locations to interact with characters at that location. Characters would not be required to pass through locations, but locations could be places to hide, deploy from, or have other game modifications. Each location would require one turn to move to or from.



Holt Locations:

If the game could be played without world locations, the Holts themselves can be locations (they are, but have several different ones available for flavor). Each Holt would have different strengths and weaknesses, and if the destruction of Holts is allowed (Fire, Two-Edge’s Clear Cutter), then “back up” holts could be left in the deck to replace the old or destroyed card.



Other thoughts and explainations:



Palace Theft (and other World Shattering Events):

Some characters (Rayak, Winnowil, the Djin, others) can seek out the palace themselves. Once they have reached the Palace, they can steal it for a time (determined by the character). There may also be Trouble Cards that cause havoc.

Those inside the Palace and not engaged in battle are immune to the Troubles of the world (Trouble Cards, unless specified as working inside the Palace). If the Palace is stolen, they are removed from the rest of the game until the Palace returns (number of turns, Djin defeated, ETC). If there are multiple teams in the Palace, they can still fight as normal, but cannot leave the palace, and none may enter, unless the card says otherwise.



Oh, yeah, as to affiliations, cards will have tribal affiliation (or non-aligned/nomadic), and what tribes/races/characters each character can and can’t align with. By default, if none are specified:



Wolfriders can align with all other elves, unless there is a character conflict. Only characters with “Elf Friend” as a skill can be played with Wolfriders. Picknose’s Trolls can also be played with Wolfriders.



Well, I just realized there is a whole mess that has to be figured out here, so I’m leaving it as I’m out of time. Basically, there will probably be icons that show affiliation (dual tribe show by two icons, etc), and no icons declaring Non-Aligned and able to be played with any Tribe or Race (unless otherwise stated)



As to Treaties, Diplomacy is needed for players to allow their Parties or Holts to align at any point, and only according to the same rules as having cards play in the same deck (though there cannot be a dual player win, and only your own characters count toward the 20 character total.)



If somehow there is a tie, the players battle it out. As this more than likely will kill off characters on both sides, and both probably fall below 20, the game continues until the goal is met.



Well, that about wraps up what I can hack out right now. I’m out of time again, and my brain is numb. I’m going to finish reading the rest of the above post and may make some mods as suggested, and post it.

TrollHammer

Well? Any thoughts?

I have some images downloaded for the test set, and nearly have the spreadsheet of card stats done. I only have about 200 character profiles started, and are.just waiting for stats and skills to be finished. I have images for about a third.of them.

TrollHammer

I guess this must be on hold, especially since we need to figure out if we are doing a card or board game.



Again, it would be nice if we could do both with the cards.



A way it could be done is if the goal cards from the board game could be included in the starter decks (one per race/tribe), then play as above with the goal in place of the palace.

TrollHammer

I would like to add, though, that while people seem to be leaning in the direction of "board game with cards", I'd like to make the cards playable without the board in grand CCG style. Shouldn't be too difficult.

Jeedai

Still trying to wrap my head around a cooperative CCG. Which is what itd need to be to incorporate the pure-cardgame ideas presented. Can you cite an example?

TrollHammer

Essentially, its a little used mechanic that is either:

non competitive: basically reliving the feel of the story with all players trying to work together to solve game puzzles or goals. Lets say that one game goal is to prevent Winnie from fonstructing the great egg and merging wuth the Palace. Each cycle of turns a card is drawn from Winnie's pile and certian things need to come up in order for her to complete the egg and merge (or a counter moved in the completion of the stages of completion). with the NPC deck it could get interesting, say having Winnie's egg, Rayak stealing the palace and moving to the future, and Two Edge's meddling could be all in the same NPC deck and it would be random as to if they all progressed at the same rate or one got done quicker. Either way, players have to work together to prevent them fron destroying everything.

Or:

cooperative in the way bridge is cooperative: two teams of players try to win the game but straitigy. Example: one plays support and one active, trying to achieve whatever goal or goals there are in the game ( which could include fighting the other player's characters)

As far as one dynamic I like to think of is Age of Empires: each player can manage their own resources and attept to win the game but can choos instead to align themselves with other players and victory is a team effort.

TrollHammer

Dab nabit. I had the bright idea to click a button and lost my post.



Basically, I was saying I'm tempted to split efforts on my part, and work on a CCG anyway on my spare time, as all the work that goes into it (character stats, artwork gathering) is used on any game we make. Then, we can either figure out what we want to make and transfer all that to it, or play the CG for a while and see what we like and hate about it, and change it. Things have cooled here and I've got extra time and passion now that I might not have later, so I have to do something.



This by no means invalidates anything else going on, it just seems like work worth doing.

Trollbabe

This sure beats the devil uut of "Old Maid" and "Go Fish"...

TrollHammer

Naw, in this case, its partly a game of "old maggoty" and "go mine"!

Wow, things have been slow. Of course, ive been busy too. Didnt get much farther than compiling a name list, and Embala was helping with that. She was going to help assign abilities to characters as well, but I dropped.the ball getting things back to her.

Since this is the main thread here it seems just wanted to make a qhick notice:

If you see a funny looking format to a post, with info all crammed together, its in tab delineated format. What this means is that the root of the text has tabs instead of spaces. This is so it can be put into a spreadsheet program like Excel via copy and paste (hopefully). to access this:

Hit the quote button on the post with the info you want.

Delete ONLY the {quote} {/quote} tags.

Copy the rest of the text using the clipboard.

Paste into your spreadsheet program.
-or-
Paste into a text document and save it. Change the extention to a format your spreadsheet program can import as being "tab delineated" and go from there.

POSTING:

In Excel, simply copy all fields as well as the header row and paste into the post entry window.

Havent tried it yet, but other things that I post with tabs dont show the tabs but the post keeps the tab info. Its also a method I use to reformat info before goong into Excel, as many people post info with thinfs like colons.that make find and replace.with tab easier.

TrollHammer

Quote:

This sure beats the devil uut of "Old Maid" and "Go Fish"...



Actually, that would be nice and easy wys of trying out Lackie and workflow. Now if I can juat remember how those are played.... (ill look em up)

If I remember go fish, the Troll equivlant would be gems and metals.instead.of.numbers:

"Got any Rubies?"

"Go Mine"

That work?

TrollHammer

I am posting this in several locations as Id like as much input as possible.



Im at the point in the game making process I need to commit to how the game is going to look or be laid out. I want to know what other people think.



The question I have for the group is: sidescroller or topdown view?



Sidescroller is like an arcade game or Mario Brothers, and would be well suited to the image style (eye level with the Elves) of Elfquest might even save some time on rendering backgrounds. There are two problems I see with it though: there is no depth, so you are stuck in a fairly linear side to side orientation, so exploring is minimized. Trolls are stuck in an 'antfarm' like tunnel system. The good thing with this is that you can show Troll Tunnels and the above ground forest far easier on the same map (though the elves cant see the Trolls!)



Topdown view: roughly speaking, this is a psudo-3D like view, as though a map of the play area has been laid out and your character can walk all over it, allowing far more room to look around, hunt, and whatnot. Topdown is better suited to the mechanics of gameplay most people want to see, but takes longer to make. Also, at the moment, it appears that the character animation system is more geared towards the sidescroller version, so someone wohld have to paperdoll every little frame of every action a player can do.



So, what does everyone want, if this all makes sense? I want a top down game, like SimCity, Command and Conquer, but the game will be done faster as a side scroller like Mario Brothers.

TrollHammer

Well, as Im on my phone, Im not going to repeat statements already made in the current status thread. Instead Im going to give a rundown of the various cards in Star Trek CCG and what they do, with examples. More can be learned at the web site, which Ill post in a moment here and in the other thread.

The cards:

Missions: translates to "Quests" in our world, this is a goal of the game, each having a point value, and a player collects points to win the game. To complete the mission/quest, a player sends an "away team" or quest party "to" the mission and attempts to solve it. After defeating "delimmas" placed hidden under the mission by the other player, the mission is solved or completed if the requirements are met by the remaining characters in the party. So, if the quest is "meet new friends: sarrow's end", the requiremwnt might be "Strength>30 AND Diplomacy x 2 or Recognition". If the sum total of strength among all present is more than 30, and a Recognition interrupt card is played or two characters have diplomacy as a skill, you get the points. Point values are printed on the card, with easy missions like this one having low point values, like 20-25 points. Harder missions that have more requirements will have higher values. In this way, if the goal is 100 points, a player has to solve 4 25 point missions, bit only needs 3 35 point missions. Missions are arrayed between players, and either player can attempt them.
Delimmas: these are cards placed under mission cards as "speed bumps" along the way to solving a mission/quest. This is like one of Two Edge's traps, or when poisoned bait is left out. Generally these are "bad" things that delay a player from completing a mission, place additional requirements on completing the mission, or can disable or kill a character preventing their use completing the mission. These are hazards along the way to getting the job done. At times, these can be benificial, or have random effects. One old one was "Borg Cube", which manifested in the game as a powerful ship that attacked everything, but had a point value if you destroyed it. The point value was something high, like 99, and the most powerful ship in the game with upgrades still took two turns to destroy it.
Vessels: one of the harder things to emulate will be ships. There arent many in Elf Quest, fanfic and future not included. Indeed, there is only one, the Palace, with smaller pods that can depart from it. I feel that the only way to add varaiety and not make this one instance too over powered is to envoke the time warping abilities of the palace and allow Future Folk to being their ships into play, as well as allow special characters to have ability to travel, such as Jink,Tyldak, and maybe gliders. Ships are required for a player to move from their outpost or base out to the missions.
Outpost/colony/base: this is where characters, ships, and equipment are played from out of your hand. If you need more "stuff" to complete a mission, and dont have it on site, it will have to be played here, and your ship will have to go back and pick it up. It hasnt been done yet, but something that might be interesting would be to have Blue Mountain as a base, with a point value for destroying it. Yes, this means promoting fighting, but it follows the story. It would also be a balance of power if we get it to over powered (converts to ship and moves, deploys mutated animals, etc).
-characters: the main staple of the game. Usually, its the characters that complete missions. They have a variety of things printed on the card: affiliations, skills, AU requirements, but every character has three numbers at the bottom: Strength, Cunning, and. .. Im spacing out on the last one. These stats come into play when completing missions, defeating delimmas, or fighting. Fighting udually only involves Strength, and Im not sure but it is either one on one, or team on team, and usually the losing team is either stopped for the rest of the turn, or one character is disabled, ill have to hit the rule book.
-equipment: adds skills to characters or augments characters or ships in special ways. A "tricorder" adds engineering or computer skill to a character if it doesnt have it, or a phaser adds strength.
Artifact: rules are almost random. Its like equipment in that it is carried along with a group, but might be played to table. It modifys the game in different ways. Examples might be: little palace- boosts numbers of up to 5 character's card by 1 at the same location. Or: Lodestone: adds two to cunning of one character in possession of Lodestone. Cutter's "New Moon" would be an artifact as it has a key within, which is beyond the scope of normal equipment.
-interrupt: this is a card that can be played at any time to modify the current state of the game. This may or may not favor one player or the other. An example might be Challenge of Head Hand and Heart, which would pause the current turn and cause the card's player to choose two characters in play to duel, comparing each of the three stats of the characterm with best 2 out of 3 winning. If it was two of his own characters, the winner takes the position of the challenged. If it is two different player's cards, some "prize" is aggreed on before hand, or something. Im just thinking out loud.
Event: this is similar to an interrupt, but can stay in play and can only be played at a certain point in your turn. Modifies gameplay.
Doorway: allows a set of cards that are not normally available to be played. Usually, this is an Alternate Univers, or AU doorway. Allows special characters, but can be destroyed wiping out alk AU cards.
More to.come, battery is dead.
Google the game or wiki it, therea more info out there.