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Mantricker - how his name tells ;)

Embala

Mantricker - Blood of Eight Chiefs



We lost his well stuffed thread due to a deleted account Unhappy Anyone has to tell, show or discuss something about the father of Bearclaw?


Easter EggQuest 2014

Allura

I only have the pic I drew of him for the 30th Anniversary image I did.



I always kinda liked the interaction between him and Demontricker.

Embala

I absolutely love how the furs turned out - so thick and soft. The hues of mint green for the outfit are surprising for me ... suits him well, tho.

The brown fringes, belt and stitches round it nicely.


Having a elf/human friendship before Cutter brought new ideas and habits was very welcome - especially as he used his wits at that time. He was not so good with handling Humans at the end.


Easter EggQuest 2012 found

RedheadEmber

Just something I realized:

Mantricker can't have been called Mantricker from birth.

Does anyone know what his original name was?

Vojira

I always thought it was 'Coyote'. Mainly because it shows up in biiiiig text in Botc 12, page five.
But, erh, it might have been a human's name or some really nonsensical name for the story.

Embala

Hm ... even when there is no prove for it - it's imaginable. 'Coyote' can stand for a sly one, a trickery one - and someone who's not always playing to the rules.

Leaves the question - what was his cubname BEFORE he qualified to be 'Coyote'? Wink

btw: In this issue is said that Mantricker has chosen this new name for himself "when he was barely growm from cubhood".



Easter EggQuest 2014

Zinegirl

Can somebody tell me who Mantricker's father is? Is it Lionleaper or is it Acorn? And what about his (half)sister, Speedwell?

RedheadEmber

According to the Who's Who it's Lionleaper. But it's got an *, which means that it's perhaps not totally actual canon.
As for Speedwell... she's got an * which I suppose means that she's not totally actually canon. But if she is, her father could - as far as I'm aware - be either.

Embala

What Who's Who are you talking about, Redhead? I cannot find any informations about Mantricker in the one on this site.

It's kinda pratical to list Lionleaper as Mantricker's father because we have a confirmed Recognition between him and Goodtree. Wish I would find the time to read the BoTC prose stories ... to find out, whether there is a confirmed fathership, too. and to meet unknown family members like Speedwell ...

Goodtree did her very best to share herself equally with Lionleaper and Acorn ... why not "sharing" the cubs, too? Wink When you look for a solution for your family tree, Zinegirl - go with Lionleaper for Mantricker and Acorn for Speedwell - and mark both as "not confirmed" until further notice.



Easter EggQuest 2014 found

RedheadEmber

The one over at 'All The Many Colors'

Here:

Mantricker -- (Coyte*) / Male / Mortal, deceased / 9th Chief of the Wolfrider tribe / Son of Goodtree & Lionleaper* / Lifemate of Thornflower* / Father of Bearclaw / Elfquest #4 (1979)

Embala

Sounds like MultiMEDEA's - in this case it is as confirmed as it can be. XD

(and she marked it as "not sure", right?) Wink

RedheadEmber

Yup! "not sure" = *

Zinegirl

Embala said

When you look for a solution for your family tree, Zinegirl - go for Lionleaper for Mantricker and acorn for speedwell - and mark both as "not confirmed" until further notice.

Yeah I think I'm gonna solve it like I solved Skot, Krim and Pike's treesome in my the old family tree. Wink

However I'd like to think that Acorn is Mantricker's father (they both have brown hair) and that Lionleaper is Speedwell's father (Spark (her son and maybe Redlance's grandfather) has red hair, and Lionleaper has red-ish hair as well.

RedheadEmber

The oldest is Lionleaper's, so much is certain.

Embala

But who's the oldest? Wink

The hair colors puzzle me as well, Zinegirl. It was proved several times that "expected" heritage does not work well with Wendy's elves. Your work, your family tree - your decision when things are not clearly figured out.

And from all we DO NOT know - the oldest could have died before Mantricker was born. Razz Just want to say we don't really know.

RedheadEmber

Embala said

But who's the oldest? Wink


The one who was born first...

lunakat




The one who was born first...


Good point!

RedheadEmber

lunakat said



Good point!



Yup! I'm pretty smart! Tongue

RedheadEmber

Aaaand! More than a year later a wild Redhead appears to continue the conversation.

Is it possible that Mantricker was sired by both Lionleaper and Acorn?
Perhaps after Goodtree and Lionleaper had answered the call of Recognition Goodtree went and had a roll in the furs with Acorn - comforting by sex - and even though the main part of Mantricker's genes, or whatever it is elves have, came from Goodtree (obviously) and Lionleaper, some of it came from Acorn. The result: Mantricker had Lionleaper's personality (at least I think his personality resembled Lionleaper's more than Acorn's) but Acorn's looks.

Tam

Well, Acorn actually encouraged Goodtree and Lionleaper to answer the call...it's entirely possible he had a more active hand in it than just encouragement. This same sort of theory is floating around for Sust too.

RedheadEmber

I think he encouraged them because otherwise they'd be suffering for quite some time. To him the idea of them denying Recognition simply because they didn't want to hurt him was just pretty dumb.

Suppose the same theory could work for Kahvi as well; her being sired by both Greywolf (through Recognition) and Two-Spear (without Recognition)

lunakat

I think Mantricker was probably sired by just Lionleaper. It makes more sense. If Acorn had been involved- he might have had a magical, thoughtful streak. But as it was...

RedheadEmber

That's why I said Mantricker got his personality from Lionleaper and his looks from Acorn.

Eyeshigh

Personality is also formed by other people, Acorn had a big role in his upbringing, so it is (to me) obvious that he had some things from Acorn. But anything is possibly, when i see Sust i can't help but think he has got 3 biological parents.....

Heather

I agree @eyeshigh. I believe that both Skot and Pike are the biological fathers of Sust.

lunakat

That doesn't really make a lot of sense, though...

lunakat

Why is it necessary for both of them to have had their sperm implant her egg simultaneously? Aren't they both important, regardless? I think it would be nicer if Skot turned out to be the dad, and Pike raised the kid. Seems like that covers all bases, without magical, polyspermy impregnation.

lunakat

I guess it could be the case that Sust is a chimera whose twin died during gestation... Maybe this happened before and a surplus of chromosomes was the reason Cheipar didn't survive his infancy? It's possible- but I don't really know of this happening in nature without some problems attached.

Rob

Three genetic parents is available on free healthcare in the UK, if you want it.

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2013/06June/Pages/UK-Government-backs-three-parent-IVF.aspx

If SOCIALISM can do it, the palace (and elf magic!) can.

But perhaps the important thing is that it should not matter to us who is the biological parent(s), because it does not matter to them.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: That doesn't really make a lot of sense, though...


To humans, no. To elves, why not?



lunakat said: Why is it necessary for both of them to have had their sperm implant her egg simultaneously? Aren't they both important, regardless? I think it would be nicer if Skot turned out to be the dad, and Pike raised the kid. Seems like that covers all bases, without magical, polyspermy impregnation.


Of course they don't have to have both sired Sust (or Cheipar for that matter), as Pike put it in Wild Hunt "He is ours!". Thing is; it's a possibility.

Same for Mantricker. We might never know who actually sired him - it isn't really important to the story since he inherited the Chief's Lock from his mother, so he was a chief-son no matter what - and it's quite possible that both Lionleaper and Acorn had a hand in rising him. Of course unlike with Sust his parents did know who the sire was.

lunakat

Rob said: Three genetic parents is available on free healthcare in the UK, if you want it.


Yes- but that is not two sperm hitting on one egg. That's taking the genetic contents of one woman's egg (who has mitochondrial disease) and implanting in another woman's egg that has been scooped clean, but has healthier mitochondria. You aren't actually getting the genetics of three parents. You are getting the genetics on two parents- and a third person's healthy mitochondria. It's similar to gestational surrogacy. The resulting child is not genetically related to the donor.

Whenever two sperm hit one egg- you have a surplus of chromosomes and that tends to cause problems.

RedheadEmber said: Of course they don't have to have both sired Sust (or Cheipar for that matter), as Pike put it in Wild Hunt "He is ours!". Thing is; it's a possibility.

I like it better without. If you don't introduce magical fertilization- then what Pike is saying is more profound. Your family isn't just your biology- it's the people who choose to be your family- who embrace you and love you and raise you.

RedheadEmber said: Same for Mantricker. We might never know who actually sired him - it isn't really important to the story since he inherited the Chief's Lock from his mother, so he was a chief-son no matter what - and it's quite possible that both Lionleaper and Acorn had a hand in rising him. Of course unlike with Sust his parents did know who the sire was.

Yep! :)

RedheadEmber

Of course, just like the elves biology makes it possible that more than one could've sired a child - I don't think there need to be magic involved - it also makes it entirely possible that blond Goodtree and redhaired Lionleaper could have a brownhaired child.
Actually... it's entirely possible for humans as well; Tanner had brown hair in his youth, skipping generations.

Rob

lunakat said: but that is not two sperm hitting on one egg


The point is simply that as our own world is at the threshold of manipulating genetic parentage to desired medical (and familial) ends, scepticism of it can be well-met by wonder at its potential, in fact and fiction.

lunakat said: henever two sperm hit one egg- you have a surplus of chromosomes and that tends to cause problems.


If only elves were subject to unique biological processes that played compelling yet often unseen roles in regulating reproduction!

lunakat

Rob said: If only elves were subject to unique biological processes that played compelling yet often unseen roles in regulating reproduction!


They reproduce sexually. There have to be some guidelines for that. I can't swallow the idea that everything in this story is unicorns and rainbows whenever we want it to be.

I also don't understand the need for both men to be the daddy just because the parents are involved in a threesome. Why? And if then, why wouldn't that just happen all the time? Like- if Skywise slept with Yun's mom and a random Go Back as well- why is he the only Dad? Is he? Maybe there are five biological dads! Who knows? Maybe Leetah's kids are a result of Cutter AND Rayek planting their flags in her womb. The possibilities are endless.

Heather

lunakat said: That doesn't really make a lot of sense, though...

Makes perfect sense to me. We already know elf DNA doesn't work like human DNA (if that is even what they have). It could be possible for the elves. Especially the Go-Backs who breed like no other group of elves. There is not reason that he cannot have two biological fathers.

Heather

lunakat said: I also don't understand the need for both men to be the daddy just because the parents are involved in a threesome. Why? And if then, why wouldn't that just happen all the time? Like- if Skywise slept with Yun's mom and a random Go Back as well- why is he the only Dad? Is he? Maybe there are five biological dads! Who knows? Maybe Leetah's kids are a result of Cutter AND Rayek planting their flags in her womb. The possibilities are endless.

It may not happen all the time. It may have something to do with how close the three-mating is.
In regards to Leetah, first she knows a lot about her body being a healer and would have known if she were pregnant with Rayek's kid (and Suntop and Ember both have Wolfriders soul names, so that's out) and second, at the time she conceived the only tribe that had any control over breeding without recognition was the Go-Backs. Leetah didn't start figuring that out until Kings.
Honestly, it doesn't matter and I don't think we will ever get an definite answer. But one thing we do know is that if Sust does or doesn't have wolf-blood it would be known by the tribe (his smell and the healers could tell). I'm happy in not knowing, but in my mind it works.

Eyeshigh

It isn't inportant, but I was looking at Sust and could not help thinking he looks much like Krim, but also looks like Pike and Skot.
Who knows how cubs are concieved... elves can mate with relatives, not close, but in a way Wolfriders are all family and tribe. The Sunfolk are from 2 women, so also family.
For humans this can not go well, at some point dna will refuse and make the children sick (don't know how to say it correctly).

When we look at Ember and Sunstream, they are both of the same parents, born at the same time, but of different blood, so to speak. How can this be? Only because cubs can choose their path even in the womb. So why not choose who your sire is or are?

Heather

Excellent point @eyeshigh.

RedheadEmber

Hmm... maybe we should split this discussion off to a seperate thread. Poor Mantricker's getting pushed out of his own thread...

lunakat

Heather said: Makes perfect sense to me. We already know elf DNA doesn't work like human DNA (if that is even what they have). It could be possible for the elves. Especially the Go-Backs who breed like no other group of elves. There is not reason that he cannot have two biological fathers.

Except that that is sort of impossible and doesn't happen for any other animal that breeds sexually that we have ever known of- except for the very rare instance of chimera twins- and in those situations, the resulting offspring is still a little screwed up. And when the egg doesn't split into twins- the resulting embryo doesn't survive because it has an excess of chromosomes. So in the entire natural world that we know of (which is pretty diverse and bizarre) this doesn't happen.

Also- there is no indication this has ever happened in the world of Elfquest. There has been no example of it, no discussion of it, and the elves themselves have never appeared to even consider it. None of them are speculating that Pike and Skot are both the dad. They are wondering which one hit that.

So we've got an example of something that has apparently never happened in the story, never been discussed in the story, never mentioned as a possibility in the story and can't happen in nature- and we are wondering if it's likely.

Well, it doesn't seem likely. Even if Elf genetics are different than human and earth animal genetics- that doesn't seem likely.

It's sort of like introducing the concept of male pregnancy. We've never seen that in Elfquest either (although that DOES happen in our version of nature). The closest you are going to get, in our world, is a transgender pregnancy. I guess, in Efquest, a healer could go in and completely rewire the body of an elf to make it possible- but how messy a thing would that be? That also seems completely unlikely because elves have a hard enough time changing their basic form, much less their internal organ systems.

This is basically us just coming up with something to fantasize about because we have this notion that you need to be biologically related to a baby to be it's daddy. Otherwise, we wouldn't even care or be discussing it. We would go with what the story presents as having happened- one or the other is the dad and no one cares who it is.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: This is basically us just coming up with something to fantasize about because we have this notion that you need to be biologically related to a baby to be it's daddy.


Of course you don't need to be biologically related to a baby to be a daddy, in fact I'm pretty sure that if there'd been an instant with a male chief who had a female lifemate and a male lifemate and one of them sired a child with the female (obviously...) then the child would be considered 'Blood of Chiefs', even if nobody knew who the actual sire was. Or maybe even if they did know - due to Recognition - but the chief considered the child his child just as much as the other male's child.
In fact you don't even need to be involved with the mother of the child, think of adoptions - Teir's adoptive father was his 'daddy', because it he was the one who raised him.



lunakat said: Also- there is no indication this has ever happened in the world of Elfquest. There has been no example of it, no discussion of it, and the elves themselves have never appeared to even consider it. None of them are speculating that Pike and Skot are both the dad. They are wondering which one hit that.


Pike referred to Skot as "your other sire" just after Krim died. Sure, I might only find this significant to the 'who's the biological father?' discussion due to my tendency of thinking sire as being the biological father, but not always the 'daddy' - Tyldak and Scouter for Windkin.
Maybe what Pike is saying without Words is that "the other person who would think of you as his son - whether or not you have his blood - if he had lived."
Kinda sad, actually, we never got to see Pike and Skot play daddies together; Cheipar died in infantry, and Skot died before Sust was born.

travelbug

I think its a very nice thought that Skot and Pike both sired Sust together, but for me personally it seems difficult to believe in the biological view. Even if the elves biology is different from us humans.

I always assumed Skot and Krim made Sust in the Shards issue where they "play" under the table. I thought it must be a fairly newmade cub in there when Mender healed Krim because she was with cub and didn't know about it.
The scene could be in there simply to explain Krim's pregnancy.
I think its difficult to imagine how much time Shards actually takes while reading the comics, maybe 2-3-4 months at most?

To be a parent, both in blood or otherwise, has to come from the heart. It requires an emotional bond.
If not, its just shared genes.

For Mantricker, why couldn't he be the result of Goodtree and Acorn recognizing, and still be more wolfish than both of them. Some elves have more wolfblood and some have more of the high ones blood. Looks, talents, strengths and weaknesses doesn't necessarily go from parent to child. Differences makes good sparks

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: Pike referred to Skot as "your other sire" just after Krim died.

I have a friend who divorced and remarried. Her kid calls her new husband "my other dad."

RedheadEmber said: Maybe what Pike is saying without Words is that "the other person who would think of you as his son - whether or not you have his blood - if he had lived."

I think so. That's really nicely phrased!

I pretty much agree with what Travelbug said.

travelbug said: For Mantricker, why couldn't he be the result of Goodtree and Acorn recognizing,

I don't think they did recognize. Goodtree recognized Lionleaper- and there was a whole story about how they resolved that while being in a threeway relationship with Acorn.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: I don't think they did recognize. Goodtree recognized Lionleaper- and there was a whole story about how they resolved that while being in a threeway relationship with Acorn.


Yeah. I think that's pretty much what confused some people. Blond Goodtree Recognized redhaired Lionleaper and... gave birth to a brownhaired child?! Can't help but imagine Lionleaper being a little "Hey! What's going on here?"
If, of course, this sort of jealousy (sp?) was common to the elves.

Eyeshigh

Can imagine, lol.
But Wendy once wrote that the color of an elfs' hair or eyes were not genetically decided, so more random then we are used to as humans.

travelbug

haircolor is actually pretty hard to predict for us humans too. Two people with brown hair and grandparents or great grandparents with red hair can have a redhaired child, because of sleeping genes.

I was thinking Goodtree could have had Mantricker with somebody else than both Acorn and Lionleaper?
There really isn't any information about it, so anything is possible :)

lunakat

My sister has dark, almost black hair. Her kid is intensely blond. My dad had black hair, my mom sandy brown. One of us came out blond, another sandy brown and the last black haired. Go figure.

RedheadEmber

travelbug said: haircolor is actually pretty hard to predict for us humans too. Two people with brown hair and grandparents or great grandparents with red hair can have a redhaired child, because of sleeping genes.


Having thought about it that might be exactly what happened here; Tanner's brown hair (from before it got grey) skipped a generation so his grandson ended up with brown hair as well.

Rob

lunakat said: Except that that is sort of impossible and doesn't happen for any other animal that breeds sexually that we have ever known


Consistent rules are cool. Eq's general consonance with science is especially cool!

That said, EQ is all about how a shapeshifting immortal alien morphed itself into a wolf to produce offspring with the heritage of two species from different planets. So having three biological parents is hardly "unicorns and rainbows" territory! It all comes down to what is shown, what pleases any given reader, and what they can find to justify that preference.

Trying to square EQ with what we understand about our genetics is doomed, past a certain point, because of recognition, magic, and sufficiently advanced tech. Who wins? The story.

And this small part of the story, I guess, is about showing us a family where biological happenstance is irrelevant. Beyond our human anxiety over knowledge is a place of peace, there for the taking.

You know, if we're going to talk about real-world genetic credibility, how about Timmain and the diversity outcomes of her descendants bangin' their siblings and cousins for 10 generations? They can still breath through their faces, which reminds us: 1) recognition, 2) they're all part of the palace, 3) we don't know all the rules!



lunakat said: there is no indication this has ever happened in the world of Elfquest.


See also: recognition is undeniable. I like to see surprises in storytelling. The alternative -- nothing may happen that has not already happened -- is where long-running SFF stories go to die.


lunakat

Rob said: That said, EQ is all about how a shapeshifting immortal alien morphed itself into a wolf to produce offspring with the heritage of two species from different planets. So having three biological parents is hardly "unicorns and rainbows" territory! It all comes down to what is shown, what pleases any given reader, and what they can find to justify that preference.

Totally disagree. Those things were set up within the logic of the story from the very beginning. Two daddies was not.

Rob said: See also: recognition is undeniable. I like to see surprises in storytelling.

The way this happened was also very consistent with the internal logic of the story. There was a very clear explanation for how and why that happened. It wasn't just some random, out of the blue thing where someone suddenly just decides to not acknowledge recognition because they don't like it.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: Totally disagree. Those things were set up within the logic of the story from the very beginning. Two daddies was not.


How do we know? As you already said; for the elves who provided the genetic material doesn't matter, so they never thought about it.

lunakat

I guess it's possible- but the authors kind of went out of their way to set up the idea of shapeshifting. It's woven into the history of the Wolfriders. The Sunfolk have a healer, the Gliders have a healer- healing is actually a really big deal in book three so much as to be a climax of the story in a healer- showdown... they worked hard to make that something intrinsic to the elves. No mention ever of two daddies. Ever.

Still- yeah, possible cus it's fiction. Anything is possible in fiction because it's imaginary. You can imagine whatever you want . I mean- heck, maybe the whole story is a dream? Maybe Winnowil actually won and we are looking at the hallucinations of Aroree as she sleeps away her life in a floating egg in space. Maybe everything will be resolved in a giant dance-a-thon against Gromul Djun within a special disco floor of the Palace. Anything is possible. Just... how much sense does it make? And how likely is it within the context of the story?

Heather

lunakat said: No mention ever of two daddies. Ever.

Not being mentioned doesn't mean it's impossible.

Rob

RedheadEmber said: How do we know? As you already said; for the elves who provided the genetic material doesn't matter, so they never thought about it.


Right. It's never been shown, so it's never been seen.

Again, the point is not that this particular biological arrangement happened, just that the idea of multiple sires is not alien to the elves--and that it may imply it.

Consider Richard and Wendy's remarks that there are many things that would logically be commonplace in EQ, but will only be shown once (to ensure its storytelling power is preserved) or never at all (to prevent it from having any storytelling presence at all.)

So we have storytelling craft-- "commonplace, but shown only once" -- to consider when we think about the logic of our expectations.

That said, if elf magic can splice two species by design, I'm happy with it being able to splice two fathers by happenstance. I understand why the novelty is unappealing, to some, but it's obviously within the range of metaphor elf magic deals with and might get up to, even if it's never been portrayed before.

Eyeshigh

And why should we care, when elves don't?
I love a good debate, but in the end it only matters what your heart tells you.

I, for one, love the idea that things, not nature for us humans, happen to "our" elves, just like Recognition, Sending and all the magic abilities! Having a cub with two daddies fits in my view of Elfquest, whether it is true or not. Whether or not Wendy and Richard meant for it. Whether or not it can ever be possible :).

lunakat

Heather said: Not being mentioned doesn't mean it's impossible.


I think you missed my point.

It's also never been mentioned whether or not Rayek is a huge chocolate fanatic. It's entirely possible that the Sun Folk invented Disco and that they shaped all those glimmering crystal balls in the palace to have one crazy ravin disco party every other tuesday. Just cus we haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't happening. But seriously?

lunakat

Eyeshigh said: And why should we care, when elves don't?

I guess i agree most with this!

Rob

lunakat said: Sun Folk invented Disco and that they shaped all those glimmering crystal balls in the palace to have one crazy ravin disco party every other tuesday. Just cus we haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't happening. But seriously?


Well, you're taking one thing that is clearly quite reasonable -- that the presence of elf magic means that their genetics are unpredictable and may involve all sorts of interesting curiosities that are not shown to us -- and comparing it to something plainly absurd.

However, it would be pretty awesome if there were more disco in Elfquest.

lunakat

Of course! It's also possible that the Sun Folk are completely unaware that they are cross-bred with Zwoots. If the Wolfriders can do it, they can do it. Maybe Savah never told them and swore Leetah to eternal secrecy. Maybe Zwoots are actually descended from small camel/donkey-like creatures that the High Ones brought with them from their home planet and we just never saw that mentioned in the story- and therefore Zwoots are kind of immortal, so the cross breeding didn't affect the SunVillager mortality... just their ability to survive in the desert and a preference for eating plants. This notion is completely reasonable as well in exactly the same way. You could go on and on with this.

But yeah, I do totally agree that Elfquest would be hella awesome with Disco!

RedheadEmber

Rob said: However, it would be pretty awesome if there were more disco in Elfquest.


How do we know they don't have epic disco dances in the Palace. Come one; surely Savah could create a nice light show! *-:)

lunakat

RedheadEmber said:
  • How do we know they don't have epic disco dances in the Palace. Come one; surely Savah could create a nice light show! *-:)







Best idea ever, Red! I'm dead serious!

RedheadEmber

SOMEONE! QUICK! MAKE THE FANART!

Sunstream is definitely very disco in his sense of style.

Eyeshigh

"Hah hah hah hah, staying alive, staying alive!"

Dio

That was an interesting discussion. It got me all stirred up. Personally I completely agree with lunakat here, but in the end it does not really matter. On such a topic we cannot come to agree after a good debate. As

Eyeshigh said: in the end it only matters what your heart tells you.



But now I cannot get the image of partying Sun Folk in the Palace out of my head...

SUN VILLAGER 1: "Look what I invented!" - *points upwards* - "I call it a dangling, iridescent, spinning ceiling orb!"
SUN VILLAGER 2: "Great Sun! That will be so much fun next Tuesday! But, let's just call it a D.I.S.C.O ball!"

RedheadEmber

=))
This has gotta be the most epic going off a tangent ever around here. This is Mantricker's character thread and we... are talking D.I.S.C.O in the Palace!

Dio

Yeah, it's shameful...
But it is still possible that Mantricker IS in the Palace right now - and his parents, too! So the answer to who his sire is can be found right there. ;)

lunakat

I'm pretty sure Mantricker would like disco. How's that?

lunakat

Dio said: But it is still possible that Mantricker IS in the Palace right now - and his parents, too! So the answer to who his sire is can be found right there.

If anyone cares to ask.

I don't think those spirits would actually know if Mantricker had two daddies- because, in the stories, they believe that Lionleaper is the biological daddy. There is actually an entire short story in the BoTC anthology dealing (in part) with Goodtree recognizing Lionleaper and trying to figure out what to do about Acorn. They all come to a nice resolution.

So... if Acorn was the daddy too- it went right over their collective heads. Ergo, if you want to believe that, just choose to do it.

travelbug

The story is drawn as well :) but its not in the readers collection, you'll have to buy the single floppy issue

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: I'm pretty sure Mantricker would like disco. How's that?


Mantricker! King of the disco! B-)




lunakat said: There is actually an entire short story in the BoTC anthology dealing (in part) with Goodtree recognizing Lionleaper and trying to figure out what to do about Acorn. They all come to a nice resolution.


"I'll shag Lionleaper now, and Acorn sometimes later!"




travelbug said: The story is drawn as well :) but its not in the readers collection, you'll have to buy the single floppy issue


Or... just find it on the DEQ.

lunakat

OR read it. It's in one of the Blood of Ten Chiefs anthology stories- possibly 'Wolfsong'? Or maybe 'Winds of Change'?(Someone correct me!) They are pretty good reads.

Here's on online version of the first anthology. It's the story of how Goodtree became a treeshaper: http://www.litmir.net/br/?b=115808&p=51

If you scroll down on this page, you get a synopsis of the Goodtree/Lionleaper/Acorn business:
http://moonbrook1981.tripod.com/id31.html

Embala

lunakat said: It's in one of the Blood of Ten Chiefs anthology stories- possibly 'Wolfsong'?

It is in Blood of Ten Chiefs (1st book) - The Spirit Quest (as in the comics).

Eyeshigh

Oh, wow! I was looking for this! Thx @lunakat. Know if the others are online too?

lunakat

Embala said: It is in Blood of Ten Chiefs (1st book) - The Spirit Quest (as in the comics).


That's the one i posted the link to. The one I was was trying to remember was the story about the recognition between Lionleaper and Goodtree. That's a different one-right?

lunakat

@EyesHigh- I think it's just the first anthology- book 1

Embala

Sorry, lunakat :\"> ... I've mixed it up. The recognition is a different story indeed. It's Shadow Play (BotC comics #9) ... cannot find it in my listings of the anthology books. Maybe it goes by another title there ...

Would a list of the story titles possibly ring a bell?

lunakat

I never really read too many of the comics- I couldn't stand the artwork, honestly. Cus, frankly, it's kinda bad.

(Sorry, Richard and Wendy Pini- this isn't a prejudice against non-Wendy artists. I like a lot of non-Wendy artists. It's a prejudice against people who can't really draw. I would never have picked them up in the first place if they weren't Elfquest, because, aside from the first one about Timmorn, they look like they were drawn by a twelve year old. IF the artist was twelve- then I apologize, because that would make them pretty good.)

Anyways- I liked the prose books a lot. That story title does ring a bell. It would be in Wolfsong... the second anthology, I think... and it would have been the story about Acorn and the shadow spirit thing he conjures. Right?

Embala

Right about the subject ... those are the Wolfsong stories:

Colors
Love and Memory
Songshaper
The Search
Genesis
Dreamsinger's Tale
Summer Tag
Stormlight's Way
A Very Good Year for Dreamberries

Don't habe the book at hand, so I cannot look up whether it might be "Songshaper".

lunakat

Yes- that sounds right!

lunakat

Each of the books had a theme. The first one was about the chiefs becoming chiefs. Longbranch was telling the stories to various members of the tribe, who were trying to work out their individual problems. The stories were all about what it means to be a wolfrider.

The second book was about displacement. It was Longreach telling a set of stories to Skywise to help him figure out why he felt caught between two worlds and how to resolve it. So all of the characters were caught in between one thing or way of being and another.

I don't remember what the third book was about... but I think the fourth was called "Winds of Change."

The stories were all written by different authors- and I think Richard wrote the frame stories- and the very first one about Timmorn. I liked those quite a bit. What was pretty fun was that each of the books continued the stories of the different chiefs and their followers- and I think each of those continuations were written by the same authors as before. So the author writing about Stormlight and Tanner continued writing stories about Storm and Tanner. The author writing about Freefoot's time continued writing about Freefoot's time- and so on. I really really liked these books. The stories were layered and interesting- and they helped show the evolution of the Wolfriders- how animalistic they were in the beginning- and their conflict with the true elves... and how the true elves all died off or disappeared- while the Wolfriders evolved to be more elf-like.

Eyeshigh

I have been reading the first novel and I really like it. Somehow it makes me understand the Wolfriders more. The only thing I feel is missing: Where did the Hunt go and if the Wolves Timmorn "gave" to Rahnee are of the Hunt or his cubs as well, but from wolves.... It is not really explained / told whether or not Timmorn mated with wolves too. I always thought he had, because some wolves could send.

Again,
thx Lunakat!!!

lunakat

He did mate with wolves- those descendants became the Wolfrider wolfpack. That's why they can send. And also why they live so long. I think the early hunt evolved out- to end up being, over successive generations, either wolfrider elves or wolfrider wolves- depending on who they mated with.

lunakat

This all becomes clear because the stories are continued in the subsequent books.

Raenafel

"this is what you get if you're involved in a threesome!"
hilarious)))

I don't see why 3 biological parents are impossible for the elves, but personally i'd prefer them to "do it normal way", or the family trees would become very complicated and would allow more assumptions and possibilities than my head can bear

lunakat

Raenafel said: I don't see why 3 biological parents are impossible for the elves, but personally i'd prefer them to "do it normal way", or the family trees would become very complicated and would allow more assumptions and possibilities than my head can bear


It's entirely possible, because it's fiction. But if it suddenly does happen to be the case, I would consider it lazy storytelling- along the lines of "you can't enter the magic crystal shard unless you are filled with love!"

RedheadEmber

Raenafel said: I don't see why 3 biological parents are impossible for the elves, but personally i'd prefer them to "do it normal way", or the family trees would become very complicated and would allow more assumptions and possibilities than my head can bear


The family trees already are very complicated.

lunakat

http://mythicscribes.com/world-building/writing-believable-fantasy/

Maintaining your audience’s suspension of disbelief is a challenge that every fantasy writer must face. Obtaining, and holding, that suspension relies on your ability to convey a believable story, setting, and cast.

If the suspension of disbelief is dissolved, so is the reader’s will to continue on with the story.

So, how do we make fantasy believable?

Consistency is what maintains the suspension of disbelief throughout the narrative, and keeps your readers comfortable in your fantasy world. It makes it possible for their minds to accept new developments, so long as they do not drastically break from what has already transpired....

Your audience needs to believe that what’s happening in your fantasy story is consistent with the world that you have presented. Obeying your fantasy universe’s laws and rules ensures that the story is believable.

When you do introduce new fantasy elements, a few questions should be asked:

Would this new element be better introduced earlier in my narrative?
Does this break any of the laws of my fantasy world?
If this new element is a departure from the established rules, should I let my audience know ahead of time that this might be possible?
If I was a reader, would I want an explanation for this new element?


The important thing is that you do not shatter the consistency by breaking the universal rules of your fantasy world.

lunakat

And that's why these people (among many others) all say this:

http://www.wow-womenonwriting.com/30-FE2-WritingFantasy.html

"5. Bound by Rules.

No matter what fantasy world you set up, no matter who your characters are, the rules you establish are the rules you must use from the opening page until the very end. The trickiest rules concern the magic in your world. Who can use it? When? Wands or spells or potions? Or all three? If your character must clearly speak an incantation to make a spell work, gagging that character will put a real damper on the magic. A character who needs sunlight to power their magic can’t suddenly perform by the light of a single candle just to save the maiden fair.

Sometimes the character must struggle with the rules. In Harry Potter, junior wizards and witches are not allowed to perform magic in the Muggle world. Do it only at a steep price. In A Curse Dark as Gold, Charlotte realizes she has to break a curse, but to do it, she must figure out the rules of the magic that is so new to her.

Learn to work within the rules of fantasy. Use these rules and the inspiration of so many subgenres to create a unique fantasy world that editors and readers alike will want to explore."


http://www.watt-evans.com/lawsoffantasy.html
Watt-Evans' Fifth Law of Fantasy: Magic, like everything else, has rules.

http://fantasy.fictionfactor.com/articles/fantasyrules.html

Begin with the world.
Creating the world where your fantasy novel is set is one of the most important parts of creating a successful fantasy novel. And this world must be pretty fleshed out before you move on to the next step. Why you ask? Because just as earth has specific rules that cannot be violated without explanation (for example, the law of gravity), your world will have laws too. It will also have its own geography, weather patterns, animals, and races of people and/or other fantasy creatures. If you jump right in and begin writing your fantasy novel without any consideration for these rules, you will find yourself in a situation where you will need to rewrite carefully to avoid any contradictions once your world has been fully created.

lunakat

The idea that someone can have two fathers is plausible... but would totally shatter my suspension of disbelief- because it wasn't introduced earlier in the story, because every established parent-child relationship up until Pike, Krim and Scot has involved only two parents so there is no precedent for it (which makes it inconsistent), and just because- thanks the above- it wouldn't help maintain the internal logic of the world that was created- and, lastly, because there is no need for it beyond fuzzy wuzzy feel goodness.

lunakat

edit

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: lastly, because there is no need for it beyond fuzzy wuzzy feel goodness.


I'd say there already is a "fuzzy wuzzy feel goodness" sense about it due to the "We don't care who sired Sust. He's our son." I suspect Acorn and Lionleaper felt the same about Mantricker, the only difference being that they actually knew who sired him.

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: I'd say there already is a "fuzzy wuzzy feel goodness" sense about it due to the "We don't care who sired Sust. He's our son." I suspect Acorn and Lionleaper felt the same about Mantricker, the only difference being that they actually knew who sired him.


I like that particular fuzzy wuzzy feel goodness because it's completely in line with how the elves have always acted and been. And btw- if they don't care, we shouldn't either. Why do we need both of these guys to be biologically related to the boy? So they can be equally important? They already are equally important.

An insistance on wanting them both to be the biological father, despite that never having been shown to happen before, undermines the whole point of "We don't care who sired Sust. He's our son."

RedheadEmber

But just because it isn't the case (with either Sust or Mantricker) doesn't have to mean it isn't possible.

lunakat

No, of course not... anything is possible because it's fantasy. But is it a good idea? When you create a fantasy world, in order to have it read as plausible and allow the reader to suspend disbelief, you have to establish rules for your world and maintain consistency. When you pull something out of a hat like this for no reason, it damages suspension of disbelief because it is inconsistent when everything that has gone on before. They could choose to bend the rules- and say, well alien biology and all... but it would still be out of the blue and fully inconsistent- since this has never been shown to be the case before. And furthermore, the characters don't care and don't think it matters who the father is- and the whole point of that would be completely undermined if Sust did turn out to have two dads.

RedheadEmber

But if there at some point ended up being a situation where a character having two biological fathers would make sense - in-story - then you'd be fine with it?
If say, a flash-back to Goodtree's time revealed that Acorn and Lionleaper were indeed somehow both biologically the fathers of Mantricker. After all; in BoTC 9 Goodtree recognizes Lionleaper and then in issue 12 (skipping issue 10 and 11 which deals with events during Bearclaw's time) she suddenly has a son who looks more like Acorn...

lunakat

I think I would be okay with it if it had previously been established that this was something that commonly happened among elves... and not a "suddenly I want it this way" business combined with a rewrite of past events.

I just don't think it was ever set up as something that happens in the past. Goodtree, Mantricker and Acorn had a whole story about the conflict of Goodtree recognizing Mantricker and not Acorn. If two daddies were possible, I don't understand why Willowgreen had to hide her recognition to Greywolf from Mantricker. Why not just use her healer abilities to have two daddies? You know? (Greywolf and Mantricker were best friends- they would have probably been down for that.) It just doesn't make sense. The conflicts in these stories are based on the notion that you can only have one biological dad.

I also think that Pike/Skot/Krim trio and their all-inclusive attitude toward fatherhood makes a really good point about what a family can be. Krim feels that both her lifemates are equally important to her, no matter who the dad happens to be. And they are equally the father- whether they are the biological father or not. Skot's memory is never forgotten and is passed down to his son- who is also Pike's son. And it's irrelevant if that happens to be Pike's genetic info or Skot's in there- because Skot died so that the family could survive and Pike raised the boy- ergo, they are equally important figures in his life. If you make them both the genetic dad... that whole point evaporates.

As far as Goodtree's son suddenly looking like Acorn.. I wouldn't be surprised. And I would probably blame a sloppy artist for that. I read the BoTC anthologies- but I didn't really pay attention to the comics because the art was so bad. (Wendy and Richard like to think that people are prejudiced against other styles or only want Wendy as an artist But the truth is, 90% of the people they hired were really bad artists. They couldn't draw well, didn't really understand anatomy or how to draw through a character... I illustrate for a living, and I know there are dozens of quality artists out there who could have done it better.)

Watch.. now that I've said this, that whole theory that Leetah is going to use her magical powers to make a baby with Cutter and Skywise both will be the plot of issue 7!

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: I just don't think it was ever set up as something that happens in the past. Goodtree, Mantricker and Acorn had a whole story about the conflict of Goodtree recognizing Mantricker and not Acorn.


You mean Lionleaper, right? Goodtree recognizing Mantricker would be kinda weird (and let's not dive into the fact that supposed Moonshade and Strongbow were at first suppose to be mother-and-son as well as recognized lifemates).




lunakat said: I don't understand why Willowgreen had to hide her recognition to Greywolf from Mantricker. Why not just use her healer abilities to have three daddies? You know? (Greywolf and Mantricker were best friends- they would have probably been down for that.) It just doesn't make sense. The conflicts in these stories are based on the notion that you can only have one biological dad.


And here I suppose you mean Two-Spear...
As for why WIllowgreen hid the Recognition, well... Two-Spear was kinda crazy.






lunakat said: Krim feels that both her lifemates are equally important to her, no matter who the dad happens to be.


Krim herself that that the sire might possibly be both of them.

Raenafel

lunakat said: you can't enter the magic crystal shard unless you are filled with love!"

i second that))

lunakat

Yeah! I meant Lionleaper and Two Spear! Sorry! I was about to run to the gym when I wrote that- and I guess it was early and my brain wasn't working properly. Good catch, Redhead!

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: The family trees already are very complicated.


True that! Everyone is related.

Say.. does anyone know if Mantricker ever recognized? We know that Willowgreen and Greywolf had a baby and passed it off as Mantricker's-right? Was that Kahvi?

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