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The Great Elfquest Language Project v.2

Jik_Tal

Kindred Soul, yes, I am still looking for information. The issue can be that rules can be set down and made to fit perfectly. However, it only takes one example of the elvish language to make those rules no longer fit. Before attempting a final set of rules I'm just wanting to make sure we have all the information and won't be finding surprises later. So, if you see any in the novels (I don't have any of the novels) please mark them down and let me know. Thanks. I hope to hear from you.

Jik_Tal

Jeb, it's interesting if there was a human named Angrif. I don't remember most of the humans. If the name were Anngrif it would be "Bright Cut" or "Blinding Cut". "AN" is yet undeciphered so it may take a while. As for crossover, it is possible, depending on the era. Nonna's tribe may have named some of their members with elvish words, perhaps to gain favor of the "bird spirits". I look forward to hearing more.

Jik_Tal

Embala, thanks for the encouragement and the help. I would be rather relieved if no other phrases or words were found. It would make life easier. Maybe once this is all put down we will start seeing more elven words in the books, perhaps some with no direct translation offered and only those who know a bit about the Abodean Elvish language will understand, kind of a nod to the committed audience. The more people that work with this language the faster it will grow. I have now hypothesized that "DAR" is "water" and "DARSH" is "salt-water". In this way "DARSHEK" means "SALT-WATER-ROCK". This originally leaved me to believe his name was "CORAL". But as there is already another named Coral I believe DARSHEK now means "Barnacle". Not sure if this works properly yet, but at least it's a step. I should probably read up more on the Wave Dancers.

Embala

In this case it's good news that one more of the "novel readers" doesn't remember elfish words or phrases, Jeremy. Wink I was remembered of the word "Taal", the name for an elfin "Gotcha" version, though - it comes from the novelizations and is mentioned in the comics as well.


I'm not sure that it is a good idea to "reinterpret" the word EK for the calcium carbonate skeletons of corals and other sea life. When I think of the list of elfin poweres there is explicitly referred to "coralshapers" among the Wavedancers.
Sadly Darshek doesn't show any magical powers in the story so far - would make it easier.
But there are two other magic users, Longfin and Snakeskin.

Longfin is pictures while shaping a fish sculpture out of sand ... that's all we know. Her power is not explicitly named, but fans tend to think of her as a "rockshaper". Well, of course it could be coral sand ... without the element of living organisms included.
Snakeskin is introduced as a capable coralshaper ... and a healer! That gives the impression that coral shaping is much closer to healing than to rockshaping. Makes sense for me - Snakeskin would grow barriers from living corals and not dead calcium carbonate spikes.

This rather clear differentiation makes me think you should stick to real rock/stone when it comes to EK, not mingling it with shells and external skeletons of sea fauna.


btw: Darshek is the curious one among the Wavedancers, the traveller and explorer.


*sigh* Wavedancers are complicated ... and not too well explored among the fans.

Embala


Jeb, it's interesting if there was a human named Angrif. I don't remember most of the humans. If the name were Anngrif it would be "Bright Cut" or "Blinding Cut". "AN" is yet undeciphered so it may take a while. As for crossover, it is possible, depending on the era. Nonna's tribe may have named some of their members with elvish words, perhaps to gain favor of the "bird spirits". I look forward to hearing more.

In case it's interesting for you I'll look up some of the Human names used among the Hoang'Tay Sho, their descendants and around the Djun's family and folk.


There is one more word that pops in mind: Aadirak (or Adirak, I'll have to look it up to be sure). It's sort of a "guardian angel" in the believe of those Djunsfolk who believe in the "good spirits", a slender humanoid figure with (angel) wings. There's rumor among the fans that Aadirak is connected to the Gliders somehow.



One more thought - just to make things clear - because you are eager to avoid any later discrepancies. There is another tribe of Wavedancers, the so-called Original Wavedancers. These elves (and publications) are NO LONGER CONSIDERED TO BE PART OF EQ CANON. When it was written it WAS a part - and it followed the same naming rules. Now it's declared to be a nightmare of The Broken One, a Wavedancer tortured and mind-broken by Winnowill.
When you want to consider them I can provide you with nearly complete information. If not we don't have to care now and for all future - Reef's messed up mind can be blamed for any inconsistencies.

btw: All of the Original Wavedancers have so-called sound names. Including them can be good or bad for your work - very laborious for sure!

PCoquelin

..
scene in the graphic novels when Cutter was with Nonna and Adar on a raft.... Cutter was teaching Nonna how to say his name in the elfin language. Not sure if she got any portions of it right... but her attempts in pronouncing it out loud were there.


Not on the raft (though he WAS about to), but with Adar inside Blue Mountain..

I just love how..



  ..this answers that!

jeb

Oh, is that where "Grfl-Pltz" as a translation of Cutter comes from? Because I always assumed that was just indicating Adar's inability to mimic Cutter's speech, and not the actual name.

Embala

I remember ChristinaRaibert - sadly she isn't active on EQFA either. Missing for years ... she could be a great help.

After you mentioned it I remembered this scene as well ... looked it up and - found nothing Unhappy Nonna had no chance to learn Cutter's name at this time.
here

Only much later Adar learned Cutter's name - and pronounced it "GRFL PLTZ" ... Jeremy's Grifl Plitz! Smile
here

(hope these links work)... NOPE. Next try ...&%/($"&%(§!"! ... NOW! I officially hate this site layout Headbang2


EDIT: PC was faster Wink - Thank you!
... good thing is I finally found out a linking that works without using these unpractical "attachments".

Jik_Tal

As far as "EK" goes it simply means "ROCK," so it is usually a reference to those who can shape rocks. Makes sense. But this doesn't necessarily mean that only elves with rock-shaping abilities could be named after rock. And so "barnacle" is a type of rock, kind of. For this I looked at the language of the Rom or Roma (frequently referred to as "gypsies") and how they expressed things. Their vocabulary is rather minimal, as I would assume the elves' to be as well (they can "send" after all, so they don't need a vocabulary as extensive as English). For example, in the Roma language the word for "squirrel" is "tree thing" or "tree fellow". However, the same could be said about chipmunks, raccoons, opossums, etc. The context would really deliver the meaning. So, barnacle could simply be referred to as a rock from the salt-water. Not sure. Always room to adjust any of these things.

As for Cutter, the infamous Grifl-Plitz, I remembered that scene as well and took a look. In this scene Cutter is speaking in a human language and says his name as "Cutter". However, this name would have been in Abodean Elvish, not as a translation into a human language. So Adar attempts to pronounce it, basically achieving the proper phonetic sounds. There were no vowels, of course. That makes things more complicated. However, we know that (according to the rules) anything ending in "ER" or "ING" is written as an "L" in elvish. So, Cutter's name would naturally have to include an "L" in it and most likely at the end of a word or sound. This works, yet again. To pick the vowels I looked at the options and attempted to make it sound the most "musical" or "bird-like" possible, electing the "i" sound as opposed to the others (which all seemed to give it a much harsher tone, in my opinion). Just calling him "Grifl" might have been sufficient but because it is a name a little more information has to be added such as what is being cut, who is doing the cutting, etc. To me, it just seems like "Cutting One" fit the bill. "One Who Cuts" might be a better translation for meaning. But with this information we can now say "ONE-EYE" is "PLITZ-AHVA". Still working out the exact rules, of course. I don't think they'll be set into stone until all EQ names are fully translated. It is still a ways off. Must go for now. I have one week left of class and then I'll have a week off to work on this much more. Thanks, everyone.

Embala

That's a intresting bit of information about the Roma language! I would have never guessed that - besides in few isolated aboriginal tribes maybe - language has a limited, unspecific vocabulary like this.
I understand better now where you come from with the "barnacle", Jeremy ... sort of a stone grown in salt water, when you look at it.

... and of course not everyone with EK must be a rockSHAPER Wink - think Rayek.


I remembered the "bird-like" sound of elfin speech when I thought about your vokal choice for GRFL PLTZ. I and E arte the most obvious choice ... *chuckles* ... Languages! I wonder whether I speak it the right way ... I in German is a sound you would normally write as E in English - at least when you recitethe alphbet.

How do YOU pronounce the I in Grifl Plitz? Like in gIve ... or in lIke?


I'm amazed once more how much time and reseach and thought you put in this task. *bows*

Jik_Tal

Me, personally? I have a habit of pronouncing all of this language with a more Latinized pronunciation. So, for me, it would be more like "GREEFL PLEETZ". But I know that the way things are pronounced is the more English form. However, this doesn't mean that others aren't free to speak it with their own accent, which they naturally would. So precise pronunciation? I'm not even going to comment on that. I may help put this language together but I'm not going to worry people on if they are saying the words right or not. Happy Hah hah. For me it would be nice enough if we could just read and write it. My accent in Romanian, Russian and Arabic makes many native speakers laugh, even when they understand everything I say. They just aren't used to hearing accents sometimes (and I speak Arabic very formally and properly apparently, apparently like when Leonardo Dicaprio spoke Arabic in "Body of Lies" and the girl laughs as him, asking where he learned to speak like that). So, I say let everyone speak it their way for now. I have laid out in the manual a basic guide for pronunciation. I follow it most of the time...other times not. I just have fun with it and I suppose that is the whole point. Happy

Embala

Yes, YOU Wink Who else should I ask? You must have an idea of the sound ... I cannot think of making up a language without speaking it at least "in mind".
In fact your Greefl Pleetz is rather close to my instinctive understanding.

No, I don't expect a phonetic instruction added to your dictionary. I asked because I'm not a native English speaker - my pronouncation of letters is very different at times. And you answered well enough: Go with the English form in general.

And in case it's pronounced in different ways somewhen ... why should we care? Call it a dialect! XD

Jik_Tal

Exactly. I think accents add character to anyone's language. It sounds like your understanding of the pronunciation are in alignment with my own and if we ever find ourselves using this language I am sure we will be able to understand each other. If we can actually use it for communication then the language is a success. Happy

PCoquelin

Except accents are mainly remnants of forgotten cultures, either vanquished or assimilated.

Embala

I'm really curious whether "Elfish" will actually be used ... here on the board for fun or spoken on conventions.

Jik_Tal

I was meaning accents as in how I would sound if I learned German. Clearly I wouldn't sound like a native speaker. And yes, I hope that eventually we post some language phrases on here from time to time. So far the phrases wouldn't be too long.

Jik_Tal

Just finished writing my final report. It just needs some editing tomorrow. Then it's a week off of school and I will have much more time for this project. I can hardly wait.

Embala

Thumbs_up

Jik_Tal

I have been delayed in the work here lately. It should continue soon.

Jik_Tal

I am sitting with about a hundred pages in my lap. The manual, names and words all spread out. It feels good to get back to work on this. It has been a rough two weeks. Rougher than normal, that's for sure.

Jik_Tal

Completed the index (I hope) which will hopefully ensure this language manual is as comprehensive as possible. I looked at dozens of language manuals and looked at how things were arranged in the index sections so I could use them as a model. I suppose it's safe to say the "bones" of the manual are now complete. All that's left is fleshing it out, deciphering the remaining names and then adding words to the language to fill in the holes. One more milestone completed.

Embala

Sounds for me like you have biuilt the "skeleton" ... and now the flesh must be added Wink

Jik_Tal

So...um...http://elfquest.imagesofher.com/whoiswho.php. I hope people can view this. A site I came across while looking at Elfquest characters in Russian. It's impressive to see so many laid out in this way. It also knocks the wind out of you to look at a list this big. Can anyone verify this list is accurate? It looks accurate to me but there are several names on there that I don't recognize. Fan fiction?

Embala

WOW ... that's extra long! There are definitely more names than I know about. I can take a look and sort out what I don't recognize - and those can be both fanon and canon I never noticed (or read) ... or simply translated/modified canon for Russian editions.

EDIT: I have looked over the list - not studied verything exactly, but enough to get a reliable impression. I'm pretty sure that all the names come from original EQ stuff - NO FANON.
The auther of the list has done an amazing job! This list seems to contain almost every character that was ever named. From the comics and prose novels, from distant past to the future stories, from canon and "non-canon" issues ... Elves, Trolls, Preservers, Humans and Bondbeasts.
Lots of the unfamiliar sound-names probably belong to Humans - from New Blood, Jink, Rebels, Futurequest and Rogue's Curse. There might be some new elfin names from the prose novels as well.


Everyone else is welcome to do the same! Especially the contribution of one of our Russian members might be helpful when it comes to the fanon/canon question.

Trying to link for easier access:

Embala


It also knocks the wind out of you to look at a list this big. Can anyone verify this list is accurate? It looks accurate to me but there are several names on there that I don't recognize. Fan fiction?

Speaking of BIG ... what exactly do you need, Jeremy? Can I skip the names that are clearly English - or are these interesting for you too?

I figure it would be helpful to sort everything (what you need only?) in Elf, Troll, Human, (Bondbeast) and UNKNOWN to me.

Jik_Tal

New translation: "Nan...nan iroeen seendal theri?"

Nan = Why

Iro = She

Ira = He

Ir = I

Een = To Make/To Do

See = Free/Unbound

"N" at end of word can signify negation

Dal = Now/Currently (to signify a change in status, something being different)

Thera = Servant

Theri = Servants

"Why...why she makes unfree now servants?" (Literal translation)

"Why...why does she imprison servants?"

As for the character lists, I just need the Elf character names so I can decipher them. Humans are not important. I'm not writing a manual for the human languages of Abode. Any help would be nice. I emailed Ekaterina Grishina, the one hosting this Russian site, but no respone yet. Fingers crossed. She could be very helpful. Thanks, Embala.

MultiMEDEA

Embala said


Speaking of BIG ... what exactly do you need, Jeremy? Can I skip the names that are clearly English - or are these interesting for you too?

I figure it would be helpful to sort everything (what you need only?) in Elf, Troll, Human, (Bondbeast) and UNKNOWN to me.

Oh, Embala dear...really? Boohoo

[link below]

This list may not be 100% on all names, but I'm sure it's at least 95% on elf names.

Embala

Almost have forgotten about this - Thanks, Medea! Can be rather helpful for a start Smile

Trollbabe

Just for the sake of fiction, I had assumed that the World of Two Moons had only two languages prior to space exploration:
A single human language, dating from the time of the Original Quest. There would have been some changes between the time of Mantricker and Tyleet.
A single High Ones language, shared by all Elves and Trolls. The Preservers had a hyper baby-talk version of the same language.

Embala

A single HUMAN language basing on the one used at the time of EQ1? The same one on each continent? How should this work?

Elves. Trolls and Preserves might be able to conserve most of the original Conehead language due to their long life span. But short-lived Humans?

Trollbabe

It's fiction. In a real world, there would be hundreds of languages.

Embala

Simplifying to allow an easy handling for fan fiction. I understand.

Jik_Tal

Still delayed with some other personal issues. Finals week is also coming up and then I am onto thesis submission. I'm hoping to get more work done soon.

Embala

Too occupied and distracted to take a closer look on the Russian name list, I havn't forgotten about it, though.


Good luck for the finals, Jeremy.

Jik_Tal

Thanks. I will take a closer look too and get them all transferred into the spreadsheet I am working on. A week off after finals should allow enough time for that. I have returned to the military as well and I am still handling a large amount of legal issues for another matter. When everything is settled I expect to be able to sit down with this for several hours and see how many more pages I can add to the language book.

As always, thanks for all the help.

Jik_Tal

Finals are over. I have a week free. I have been listing the names from the site to the Elfquest Names spreadsheet and then I will begin trying to decipher them. Luckily, it seems that most of these names are in English form so it means less deciphering will be necessary. I hope this will mean things will go more quickly. In order to ensure the Language Manual is as complete as possible I have grabbed another textbook by Fromkin et al. By the time I am done studying the text I will know, for sure, that the bones of the Language Manual are mapped out properly. With just one more phrase to decipher I hope that this project will begin to pick up some speed.

MultiMEDEA


Finals are over. I have a week free. I have been listing the names from the site to the Elfquest Names spreadsheet and then I will begin trying to decipher them. Luckily, it seems that most of these names are in English form so it means less deciphering will be necessary. I hope this will mean things will go more quickly. In order to ensure the Language Manual is as complete as possible I have grabbed another textbook by Fromkin et al. By the time I am done studying the text I will know, for sure, that the bones of the Language Manual are mapped out properly. With just one more phrase to decipher I hope that this project will begin to pick up some speed.


Again, character names, in English, are posted on this site in the "Who's Who Texts" thread (link is in my previous post.) No need to re-invent the wheel. Grin

Jik_Tal

Character names in English still need to be moved onto the spreadsheet. Not all characters listed, in English or otherwise, are Elf names. Human names are not important. Because I don't know all the Elfquest characters, and the list is extensive, I have to look to see if it's a human. So, step-by-step. If anyone wants to put it into a spreadsheet and send it to me so I can just CTRL + C it, that would be fantastic.

Embala


Again, character names, in English, are posted on this site in the "Who's Who Texts" thread (link is in my previous post.) No need to re-invent the wheel. Grin

If possible, I'll try a reconciliaton. This Russian site has a unseen amount of characters listed!

Jik_Tal

Sounds good. I'm just trying to make sure I have absolutely everyone in the list. If I decipher a name and then a new name pops up which ruins the meaning of the first name I'll be back to square one. Just trying to make sure I won't have any surprises later. The Russian site was the most comprehensive I've seen thus far. It's one of the reasons I was asking for verifications that the names were actually from the EQ series and not from fan-fiction.

Jik_Tal

Finished the spreadsheet of Elfquest names. It appears to be 639 names long, to include Trolls, Preservers, Wolves as well as Elves (as they all speak the same language). When this is done I'd estimate there to be at least 1,000 words in the EQ language and then we can start making up the rest. As long as it follows all the rules it should be much easier than deciphering. If anyone wants a copy of the new spreadsheet send me an email and I'll attach it.

Embala

I'm not really here - mind is too distracted and I will be off for a few days. Hope to come back to this next week.

Glad to read that the project makes progress.

Jik_Tal

Hello, all. Still working on this but the translations are slow. Work and some other personal family issues (hopefully resolved by late December) have slowed progress. I will be putting the spreadsheets down today and focusing on the manual itself as well as going back to some original notes. I hope everyone is doing well.

Jik_Tal

I think I may have figured out the translation for Winnowill. It's been a good day.

StarShine

Winnowill's name has a transaltion?

I also found it interesting that Strongbow's soul name sounds like Winnowill's names (to avoid spoilers)

If Strongbow had been a pure-blooded elf, would he have had a power to match The Black Snakes?

Jik_Tal


Winnowill's name has a transaltion?

I also found it interesting that Strongbow's soul name sounds like Winnowill's names (to avoid spoilers)

If Strongbow had been a pure-blooded elf, would he have had a power to match The Black Snakes?



For the hypothetical translation I used:

WIN = Shadow

NO = (suffix) ed

WIL = Sap/Tax/Drain or "Winnow"

L = (suffix) ing/er

Winnowill = Shadowed Sapper

Still not final, but at least it's a pretty good start and it follows the rules very well so far.

Embala

OH ... I understand "shadowed" - very appropriate.

But what does sap or sapper mean in this context? My dictionary suggests contradictional and very irritating translations. All I can make sense of: A kind of "vampire"? Someone who is sucking life out of her people?

Jik_Tal

Embala said

OH ... I understand "shadowed" - very appropriate.

But what does sap or sapper mean in this context? My dictionary suggests contradictional and very irritating translations. All I can make sense of: A kind of "vampire"? Someone who is sucking life out of her people?


Yes, to "sap" means to drain, suck, reduce, etc. In this context we can see how Winnowill can suck or drain an individual's will mentally (as she tortures so many with Black Sendings) as well as physically (using her powers as a healer to cause pain or destroy someone physically like in the case of Smelt, the father of Two-Edge).

As one quote discusses Cutter's lack of understanding of Winnowill's name it also makes sense as Wolfriders may have no understanding of draining, sapping, or reducing (at least in the context of physical or mental strength). So, Winnowill is like a psychic vampire in a way. Hmmm...I guess she does "feed" off of others but only for her own amusement.

Anyway, just my interpretation of her name and it seems to fit the rules.

Embala

It makes sense for Winnowil - and as it fits the rulesof the language you build up it's just perfect.

TrollHammer




Yes, to "sap" means to drain, suck, reduce, etc. In this context we can see how Winnowill can suck or drain an individual's will mentally (as she tortures so many with Black Sendings) as well as physically (using her powers as a healer to cause pain or destroy someone physically like in the case of Smelt, the father of Two-Edge).

As one quote discusses Cutter's lack of understanding of Winnowill's name it also makes sense as Wolfriders may have no understanding of draining, sapping, or reducing (at least in the context of physical or mental strength). So, Winnowill is like a psychic vampire in a way. Hmmm...I guess she does "feed" off of others but only for her own amusement.

Anyway, just my interpretation of her name and it seems to fit the rules.



I agree and would further like to add that she also "saps" the dreams of the humans and others, as described by Aroree. It makes the whole den of Gliders very much vampiristic (though they were probably taught this, not naturally having this tendancy?)

TrollHammer


Just for the sake of fiction, I had assumed that the World of Two Moons had only two languages prior to space exploration:
A single human language, dating from the time of the Original Quest. There would have been some changes between the time of Mantricker and Tyleet.
A single High Ones language, shared by all Elves and Trolls. The Preservers had a hyper baby-talk version of the same language.



I had assumed two languages once I understood they were on different contenents, perhaps even three:

Origional Gotara tribe (which I figured was gutteral, primative, unrefined, perhaps even to the point of toung clicks and grunts)

Later, more refined tribal language, mantricker's time, as they would need to be able to have the words to recount lore. (but still same language).

I figured the Hoan's language could share the same roots, but be more than dialectly different. Perhaps roots similar enough for Cutter to pick up easily, but to me they seemed more refined than Gotara tribe, and had little to none of the same mentality. I understand there was a split in the human tribe thousands of years before, and this could be the other half, but I dont know if this is the case. I counted it as possibly seperate (like how German and English share the same roots, but are definately different languages).

Then theres the "Threk'sht" contenant language. Initially it seemed implied that so much time had passed that the language had evolved into something new, vaguely familiar, but I would go further to say that it was a different as anglo/saxon and native american.

In my way of thinking, way back before arrival to WoTM, the High Ones had experience in many diverse languages from all the planets they visited, and I had suspected that their language was complex, beautiful, and intricate compared to any human language, perhaps extending into ranges of sounds humnas could not mimic. I would think that to a race who's language was so complex, and biologically capable of mimicking strange and alien races, any sound that was uttered by any human race would be grouped together from the Elves perspective as being similar.

I understand that the Elves of Cutters time had no experience with of world languages, but their own language would still be levels above whatever the Humans had. I havent read back theough the thread in a while to know if its been mentioned, but it seems that the Elf language is immutable, as all elves from all times, as well as ancient High Ones and preservers, is at least similar enough over 20,000 years to be immediately understandable.

Jik_Tal





I agree and would further like to add that she also "saps" the dreams of the humans and others, as described by Aroree. It makes the whole den of Gliders very much vampiristic (though they were probably taught this, not naturally having this tendancy?)


Great point, Trollhammer. I had not considered Winnowill's ability to do that but it definitely adds more depth to the meaning of her name. Thanks for the valuable input. At least I think I am on the right track, though still stumbling through the bushes.

Jik_Tal

For some reason this didn't post properly. Perhaps my mind has been too distracted to hit the correct button. I'll leave it to others for now to speculate as to the amount of languages on Abode. I'll stick with the elvish stuff for now. Thanks to everyone for keeping an interest though.

TrollHammer

Is there a current incomplete translation list posted anywhere yet, or is it still email? (will send email in a moment).

Jik_Tal

I don't know how to post it anywhere on here but I just sent you a copy of everything via email. Considering the manual is dozens of pages long so far I don't think CTRL + C would be a good way to post it here on the forum. If anyone has a better idea please let me know. I'm not very tech savvy.

Jik_Tal

Embala, I fired off an email to you which includes the current version of the language manual and the spreadsheets. Please feel free to add your input. Things have been pretty unproductive here lately. My group is getting ready to buy a restaurant, I'm still working on another grad degree, I'm back in the military getting new certs and still dealing with the legal aspects involving my brother's death in August. I am hoping things will slow down after December but I don't suppose I am that lucky. I appreciate all the help all of you have offered.

Embala

*sigh* I was afraid of this.
My programs are too old to open your files. I have to wait until I get the new comp ... somewhen next year, I guess.

There's alot going on for you right now, Jeremy. Good luck for your studies and other plans. I hope you can return to this project WITH JOY when real lifes slows down and gives you enough time.

My sincere condolences for the loss of your brother, Jeremy.

TrollHammer

Embala said

*sigh* I was afraid of this.
My programs are too old to open your files. I have to wait until I get the new comp ... somewhen next year, I guess.

There's alot going on for you right now, Jeremy. Good luck for your studies and other plans. I hope you can return to this project WITH JOY when real lifes slows down and gives you enough time.

My sincere condolences for the loss of your brother, Jeremy.


Ill send you what Jeremy sent me in an earlier format. What extention do you require?

@Jeremy Thanks for the files, and I hope you get some relaxation during the end-of-year hubbub.

Embala

Thanks for the try, Hammer. Though I'm afraid my programs are holelessly outdated. Looks like I have only Lotus 1-2-3 (file.WK4) and Lotus WordPro (file.LWP) to work with. Other options are either not available - or not tracable - not by me. :/

Jik_Tal

Hello, all. It looks like I've finally finished with my new MA degree (knock on wood) and I should have a whole month to work on this without much interruption. I will be at the Emerald City ComiCon (Seattle) at the beginning of March. I am hoping to have a full print out of what I have produced so far in case I happen to bump into WaRP. I'll keep you all updated as to the progress. I am currently in Eastern Europe at the moment but I should be back in the states in a week or so. All the best.

Embala

Hello, all. It looks like I've finally finished with my new MA degree (knock on wood)
That's great news ... crossing fingers and toes that everything went well, Jerymy!

I should have a whole month to work on this without much interruption.
And THIS is is good news for this project Smile


I will be at the Emerald City ComiCon (Seattle) at the beginning of March. I am hoping to have a full print out of what I have produced so far in case I happen to bump into WaRP. I'll keep you all updated as to the progress.
Good luck!

Jik_Tal

After spending an hour or so going through the names (at about 640 right now) I have been scratching my head as to Troll names (these a frequently harsher sounding names and frequently include double letters which is a nice feature). I eventually determined it would be best to look up mining terms for the trolls and found a vast amount of interesting possible translations for troll names. For example, "Drub" I have suggested to mean Pyrite or Fool's Gold. Essentially it's a pretty rock but without much value, my opinion of how the trolls might have originally viewed Drub. Clearly things have changed, but not her name.

Embala

After spending an hour or so going through the names (at about 640 right now) I have been scratching my head as to Troll names (these a frequently harsher sounding names and frequently include double letters which is a nice feature).
Are there so many Troll names that are not plain English word combinations? ... I thought most of them are just like "Picknose" ...

I eventually determined it would be best to look up mining terms for the trolls and found a vast amount of interesting possible translations for troll names.
They would be definitely appropriate for Trolls - together with names of animals and vegetation living/growing underground.

For example, "Drub" I have suggested to mean Pyrite or Fool's Gold. Essentially it's a pretty rock but without much value, my opinion of how the trolls might have originally viewed Drub. Clearly things have changed, but not her name.
I like your suggestion SO MUCH BETTER than the translation we got in the German edition: Drub = Prügel (= club)
But when I look up "drub" in the English dictionary it seems to be the simple, literal translation ... :/

Jik_Tal

Touche, Embala, and thanks for the help. I hadn't even thought of DRUB as being English. I was thinking in terms of a noun rather than a verb. But it works and is very fitting.

As for other troll names, you have Dregg, Flam, Bupa, etc. Names like "Pick-Nose" might be difficult to translate as the first part of his name is both a verb and a noun (a very fitting troll name). It might lose something in the translation unless I ensure a verb is the same thing as the noun...which kinda makes sense. You use a PICK to PICK at something...

I have been working on the past tense form of words recently, sticking with the "NO" at the end of the elf verbs to demonstrate the past tense. However, this is a bit trickier than in English because the past tense can often be confusing. If a bone was broken (FRAKNO) that means that it WAS broken but it is no longer broken. If the bone was broken and is also CURRENTLY broken the form remains as "FRAK" (break/fracture). This also works for rocks, glass, etc. Something can BECOME "break/fracture" but unless it is repaired it will remain that way. So, if you broke a vase and glued it back together it would okay to use the form FRAKNO. Kinda complicated I suppose.

Anyway, it keeps the mind busy. Thanks again for the help.

Jik_Tal

I'm having a bit of trouble with Venka's name. She was apparently going to be brought up by Kahvi to be used as some sort of weapon against Rayek and so her name would probably reflect this intent (at least partially). However, when Rayek tries to merge the two palaces Venka says something along the lines of "I know my name. I need not resent anyone." So, this tells me her name might be something more benevolent. Maybe it's something of duplicity, like "Mercy" or something like that. You can kill something with a sense of mercy... Just wanted some additional input as Venka is one of the most mysterious characters I have come across. I've always waited to see more from her but she always maintains that facade.

MrsGrizzley

Maybe not "Mercy"... that wouldn't be within Kahvi's mental awareness... maybe something closer to... "Return" or "Circle", you know, "what goes around comes around" because she wanted her daughter to give back to her sire what he had given to her people.

And I'm sooooo glad I finally found this thread!!! *This* is a project I wanted to get in on again.

Grizz

Stormcatcher

"Venka" resounds in my head as something meaning "arrived" or "welcomed", like in "she has come" or "I am here". Just an idea...

MrsGrizzley

*laugh* Ohhh... even better, though the term actually is a human one, maybe "Venka" is the elfin equivalent to "Karma". The idea that our fate is influenced by what we do and that everything that we give comes back to us. Karma can be good or it can be bad, either way, depending on what the person in question has done. It's also a very mysterious concept, which is perfectly in line with Venka's own mysteriousness.

this would *also* explain her power. She's not *blocking* so much as causing a feedback loop by returning the send to the sender, and the power to the source. this would naturally be very *painful* for someone as dark and twisted as Winnie is.

Stormcatcher

On the other hand, "Venka" might mean nothing more spectacular than "shield" or "guard"...

MrsGrizzley

Very true.

But given that Venka is the closest ElfQuest has to a Canon Sue, also called a Mary Pseudo, I would imagine that her name would be reflective of something stronger, something more dramatic because we all know how much the Mary Sue is a Drama Queen to the N-th degree.

*shrug* They're all legitimate options.

Stormcatcher

Her mom's too down-to-basics to call her umpteenth kid "Biting snow-grit in the enemy's face" or anything as colorful methinks...

MrsGrizzley

Very true, which is why I'm not suggesting something overwhelmingly flowery like that. I agree, flowery and overblown is most definitely *not* Kahvi's style. A straightforward word, like Karma, is actually possible for her, though, because it's a simple word and yet means something much more than that.

Particularly since her name isn't mentioned until *after* Rayek's temper tantrum which caused Kahvi to want to pay him back for what he did.

Stormcatcher

Agreed - "Mirror" or "Reflection" hit my mind...

MrsGrizzley

Those would definitely work and would link to the concept of her power causing a feedback loop where she returns power to the source, which I really like because it's something that could be useful for *more* than just blocking the Black Snake, and it makes her not quite so overpowered-seeming.

Stormcatcher

Hey Jem, prob solved! Happy

Embala

A very enjoyable discussion! Inspiring. I'm glad you found your way to this project, Grizz - you spark new ideas Smile

Jik_Tal

Sounds good. "Mirror" is already an elf name and I was using the same word for "echo" and "reflection" but I think I can change that rather easily. Maybe the thesaurus will be in order.

Stormcatcher

There could be different words for manufactured/shaped mirrors like polished metal or glass, and natural mirrors like still water or crystals...

Jik_Tal

Sounds like a good idea. I've gotten a bit of work done on the WaveDancers (my least known band of elves). Sy = black, Dor = Shell (Dori = Shells), Al = gold. So, ideas for Rhi-Al-Dor (?-Gold-Shell)?

Embala


Sounds like a good idea. I've gotten a bit of work done on the WaveDancers (my least known band of elves). Sy = black, Dor = Shell (Dori = Shells), Al = gold. So, ideas for Rhi-Al-Dor (?-Gold-Shell)?


Rhialdor is the clothmaker, working with seaweed and such. And he is the "jester" of the tribe, loves to make fun and has a certain acrobatic talent. That's all that comes in mind without rereading.

Maybe one of these informations can spark an idea.

Jik_Tal

Well, Rhi is the plural form of Rha. Maybe it means "laugh" or something.

Jik_Tal

Working on the possessive form for words. While M or M' (depending on if it before a vowel or consonant) means "of" of "from" it could also be the possessive form. For example "Kahvi's eye" could be translated as "Ahva M'Kahvi" (literally "Eye of/from Kahvi"). This seems like a rather lazy way to do it but it can get the job done. Thoughts?

Additionally, I am looking again at negation. Cutter once said something along the lines of "We only have words for the things we don't have." I'll have to look at it again to see the context and perhaps the exact way he means this. But, for example, in Russian you have "MNOGA" for something like "much" or "big" while "NE-MNOGA" (UN-BIG/UN-MUCH) can mean "a little". In this specific case "little" doesn't have it's own word, it is just a negation of "big". I think this is a rather interesting concept (I've been reading Lao-Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" and thinking about universal opposites, without one the other wouldn't exist) and perhaps this is a good way of thinking about the elves' concept of having and not having.

Jik_Tal

Another note: with the creation of this language it seems it is less "bird-like" than some might expect. I've had to think about that a bit. There are, however, many long vowel sounds. Vowels, in my opinion, would sounds more "bird-like" than consonants. This, too, is in addition to fact that elves are much smaller than the humans and would (again, in my opinion) have a smaller larynx which might also be placed higher. The larynx allows for pitch and tone and size and position typically accomodate different ranges. So, their voices would be higher than the humans and perhaps this makes them sound more bird-like. This is just a current theory. I know very little about human biology, and less than nothing about the biology of elves.

...the neck bone's connected to the...head bone...?

TrollHammer

"Ahva M'Kahvi" Starting to remind me of Klingon!



"...the neck bone's connected to the...head bone...?" Unfortunately, the Cave Men connected the Thigh Bone to the Head bone when the Elves landed... (ok, so it was a wood club, but lemme have my fun). Then, according to one account, one of the elves connected all sorts of other bones together to form a silly costume.



That leads me into my thoughts about biology influencing speech in this instance. When the Elves got to abode, the little speech they used was with their critters (Preservers and Prototrolls). It would be adjusted for what would be clearest to the creature they were talking to, I would think: High and "chittery" or "screechy" for the preservers, and presumably lower for the prototrolls (that's an assumption I'm making, both based on bias and the thought that they are larger creatures than the Preservers). This might have been a higher dynamic range than what a human would normally consider "normal", in my way of thinking.



It bothers me that it seems as though the firstcomers attempted to telecommunicate at first contact. They had been to many planets throughout the stars, and I would think they would be quite practiced in the art of diplomacy and whatnot, but of course they had just been through a rather nasty landing. Still, I feel as though they would have thought through standard vocal communication based on prior experience when shaping their bodies, and adjusted their vocal range to something close to Human, while maintaining the ranges useful for talking with their pets (say... 20-60hz up to... 30k-40khz? This would be far greater than what the human voice would normally be capable of (main tones in the 300 to 3000 hz range, with hearing in the 20hz to 20khz range)).



Anyway, whatever they started out with for "normal", I agree that later generations that had shrunk (not quite pygmy, but sort of?) and would have shorter "vocal apperatus", and therefore higher pitch than the firstcomers. If this held true, Savah, Lord Vol, and Winnowil might have a deeper voice than the rest of the Elves, perhaps closer to "human", thought I don't remember the villagers near Blue Mountain acting like Elvin speech was anything they could mimic easily... but then I remember Demontricker or Patch that seemed to be able to go between the two races fairly easily... hmm...



Anyway, the thing I've been thinking about most was the Preservers and, more particularly, the Trolls. Even though Preservers seem to be able to generate sounds far disproportional to their size, simialar to some insects, the description of their speech is high pitched and screechy. Their grammatical patterns and name selection suggest their speech is a simplified version of the Elves' speech, perhaps abbreviated, dropping "extra" words from utterance?



Trolls, on the other hand, would have probably had an initially simplified language from their "pet years", but would have developed more complexity on their own, but other than a few specific referances to things only found underground, they seem to be able to carry on fairly easily when Maggoty was caught by Bearclaw... though the young seemed to be mis-interpreting what they heard.



In brief, I think Trolls developed parallel to the Elves' already established language, thought I feel as though they would have lower, gravely voices, but this is my biased projection, mostly. They would have deeper chest resonance than the elves, though.

Jik_Tal

Very good points. I laughed when I read the "hip bone is connected to the head bone" line. That's funny. As for the first-comers sending to the humans that could be for a couple of reasons. Firstly, perhaps after centuries of intergalactic flight the ability of the elves for vocal speech may have diminished (communicating telepathically rather than vocally). Additionally, I think elves can send to humans. There was the story of Suntop meeting the human boy and, at the end, not being able to communicate another way, he sends the word "friends." From the look on the human's face he seems to understand. So, perhaps the telepathic ability can extend to other animals. It extends to wolves, obviously (though wolves can send back which is interesting).

As for vocal communication with humans, I think the problem resides in the "critical age period" (essentially 12 or younger in humans) in which the brain is being wired for speech. Before that period people can learn languages rather easily. Afterward it is much more difficult and almost impossible to sound like a native speaker. When I speak Romanian people understand but they frequently laugh at my accent (they don't hear American accents very frequently). So, Patch learned elvish when he was young and so he could speak it fluently. It never specifically mentions his accent in human speech (which may have been present). He couldn't speak their language in the beginning, that's obvious.

I agree with your assessment about the elves, trolls, preservers and humans in regard to their vocal range. Naturally the preservers would have a very high voice, somewhat screechy (I have heard birds sound this way, too). Trolls, being broader in throat than the elves, would likely have deeper voices.

The trolls would naturally develop their own dialect of the same language or at least have their own vocabulary. For example, we know that the elvish word for "wheel" is from the trolls and I am fairly sure "wine" is too. "Metal" would also be a troll word (which is obviously different with frequent double letters including "gg") as would many other words which the elves would have no need for.

Much of the elements of this conversation will likely find their way into the forward of the manual to offer some attempt at explanation.

Diana

I just discovered this thread and I was wondering if I can find the current list somewhere. Just curious Smile

Embala

According to Jeremy this list is huge - to huge to be shared on the Scroll.

But you can pm Jeremy and ask for the list. I hope he will answer it sooner or later. He wasn't around lately and sounded very busy in real live.
When there's no reply try to contact TrollHammer - as far as I know he has a (older) version of the list.

Diana

Embala said

According to Jeremy this list is huge - to huge to be shared on the Scroll.

But you can pm Jeremy and ask for the list. I hope he will answer it sooner or later. He wasn't around lately and sounded very busy in real live.
When there's no reply try to contact TrollHammer - as far as I know he has a (older) version of the list.


No response yet Unhappy

Embala

Nothing from TrollHammer as well?

Diana

Embala said

Nothing from TrollHammer as well?


No, unfortunately

Embala

I'll try to reach him - he has difficulties to read PMs on his phone.

And when I dig deep enough I might find the PM he has send me with the files. Sadly I wasn't able to load them - I don't have the software in question.

Diana

Embala said

I'll try to reach him - he has difficulties to read PMs on his phone.

And when I dig deep enough I might find the PM he has send me with the files. Sadly I wasn't able to load them - I don't have the software in question.


Thanks for your help!
What do you mean with needing software to load the files. Aren't they just word files or something?

Embala

When I remember right it's more like an Excel file.

Diana

Embala said

When I remember right it's more like an Excel file.


Openable with LibreOffice or OpenOffice? Smile
(Is that even a verb? :S I really need some sleep, I'm off, ttyl!)

Embala

Sorry absolutely NO idea.

Try in case you'll get it Wink

Jik_Tal

Hello everyone,

Sorry about not being around. I just returned from several weeks of training with the military (took Honor Graduate, one step behind Distinguished Honor Graduate, which went to my team chief). Not frequent access to the internet. I can see that I have messages in my "inbox" but the site will not let me load it. Not sure why. While I was away in Jersey, I was heading towards "Tom's River" (I believe it was called) and I saw a street named "SYDOR". I should have snapped a photo.
Anyway, I am back for a while. WARP seems very busy these days and it looks like a very exciting time for them. I'll be working on the language manual a bit. For those who want, email me at jerms15@hotmail.com so I can get the current manual and spreadsheets to you. The PMs here aren't working right now.

Again, sorry to all for my absence. Uncle Sam frequently dictates my schedule.

-Jeremy

Embala

In case you are get access here on a phone:

Try to ANSWER the PMs. TrollHammer seems to have a similar problem and say he can read his PMs only in the reply function. No idea what this exactly means.
But - I usually get 2 answers from him: One with the comment "reply to read" and later the proper answer.

I figured your are busy with the military. Glad you ar well and have still time to look in and work on the language manual then and now. Smile
I'll point Diana to your email - she's interested in the fact sheets.

Have a good time, Jeremy. Smile

Diana

Thanks! I'll send an e-mail :D

Jik_Tal

Diana,

Just sent you a response with the manual/name list. I look forward to hearing your ideas.

Jik_Tal

Hey everyone,

Not sure the glitch here on the system but until it gets resolved please send me PMs at jerms15@hotmail.com and I'll respond much faster. Thanks. I hope everyone has been well. I'm looking at the name list now and it seems I've done about 250 names but that is only a fraction of what needs to be done. ...certainly a large task. Good thing I will have most of summer to work on this.

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