Oh wow =(( :-O
So... does that settle it once and for all? Teir is Kahvi's son.
However, now I'm no longer so sure he won't turn up to be the son of Kahvi and Windkin. Kahvi's comment about "comely butt" seems more like something she'd say to a 'furmate', than something she'd say to a lovemate's son.
Maybe when Windkin said that he and Kahvi had "parted ways, never seeing each other again." What he really meant was: "After we had a good roll in the furs together."
It could be "hurry your comely butt to save your brother" or it could be "hurry your comely butt to save our son", I can not see which one it will be.
I was surprized at the tenderness in the in the 5th page <3
travelbug said: I was surprized at the tenderness in the in the 5th page <3
Abandonment issues are hard to get over.. But I did think it was a bit of a dramaqueen moment there ;)
(I do think he lost his coolness from when we first saw him in HY, but I haven't been bothered much about his "whining" before)
I'll forgive him that drama queen moment...not much more dramatic than, you know, falling into a rushing river and almost drowning. XD
... and informative ;)
What I wonder now - can it be that Ember actually DENIED Recognition successfully? You know - really stopped it instead of just putting it back? Then there won't be a cub - not now.
It's possible. I don't think that was her intention, but the wording does seem pretty final. Of course, if I were in her situation, I would probably be making more final decisions than thinking about delays.
So exciting! And great to be seeing Kahvi back in action again. I've always loved her. And looks like we may be getting answers to long unanswered questions.
Aack! Why do I do this to myself?! It's totally a love hate relationship with the spoilers for me. The tenderness & "duckling" caught me way of guard too. Even if Kahvi had her reasons....just not something I envisioned her saying. She's way into tough love!
I think you can deny recognition and break the link between the souls and delay it.
But there has never been a story yet where the recognition actually goes away. If that can happen it pretty much goes against the purpose of recognition in the first place.
The fact that there wasn't a story like this before is the reason why I wonder whether it is püossible at all ...
Would make for a really new story and some unexpected turbulance in relationship.
travelbug said: I think you can deny recognition and break the link between the souls and delay it.
But there has never been a story yet where the recognition actually goes away.
Cutter was more affected by unaswered recognition than Leetha, he grew thinner and barely ate. Leetha's healing must have played a part?
Dewshine and Tyldak were both affected, growing weak and somewhat sick from fighting it.
Ember too, in the start of #3, seems sick to her stomic and in pain.
In Blood of ten chiefs, Zarhan manage to delay recognition with Cheseri for 10! years, by refusing to let himself feel it. He spends all his energy ignoring the pull of recognition until it fades for a bit, but it does come back. I may remember incorrectly, but I think it ends with the trickster clan tying him down, for Cheseri to fullfill recognition.
I think Ember's rejection of recognition, resembles Strongbow's rejecting Timmain a lot. As if they decide to break the links between minds
I think Leetah's success in denying Recognition was due to her healing abilities. The lack of illness in Cutter could have been due to...being a much less whiny character than Teir? *laughs* He didn't eat for days, I remember that bit. It probably just would have gotten worse.
Regarding Strongbow and Timmain, I think he just closed his mind to her. Like...plugging your ears when you don't want to listen to someone. Part of the reason for soul names seems to be to protect against the intimate nature of sending...Timmain's sending seemed to be so powerful it could break down that barrier, so Strongbow was putting up extra defenses by essentially plugging his ears.
Tam explained the Strongbow thing so much better than me :)
Aww, thanks. :)
Sigh.... I miss Hidden Years Teir. Heck, I miss Wild Hunt Teir. Aside from his cat necklace and hair/eye color, I see almost nothing of the original Teir in this new guy.
You know who is looking pretty hot/sexy/awesome lately, ever since Final Quest started, though? Mender. Oh my gosh. I have never ever considered Mender all that and a bag of cheetos before. In all honesty, he used to seriously annoy me. I'm a big fan of Mender's new, badass makeover!
So that seals it. Death really isn't a state you necessarily want to come back from if you're an elf.
@lunakat Mender was pretty hot to begin with ;)
@travelbug- I never thought so. I actually thought Tier was quite a bit hotter... at least until this storyline. Mender, imo, was just... eh. But now it's flipped. It seems like Tier is having a really inappropriate and regressive crisis in the middle of, frankly, an actual crisis... every other page! While Mender is taking care of the situation in an adult manner. I'm not a violent person- but I greatly admired how he killed the bad guys. That was so cold blooded- and efficient. Ember was all "take my helpless lifemate and run!" And Mender was like "Right after I finish cleaning up this. Okay- they're dead now. Let's go." Super capable. I always saw him as kind of superficial before- but now I see that he is so freakin capable. Tier... is the opposite of capable at the moment. He's an incredibly dramatic and helpless liability. Mender is the guy you want in your tribe when the shizer hits the fan.
If this series were the Walking Dead- Mender would still be alive several books in- and so would everyone who hung out with him. Tier would be dead by now. Tier would have gotten all his friends killed as well. Tier would be a zombie.
Windkin always had that sexyness about him... but..i do not like his Final Quest outfit at all...
@ Lunakat.. i had the same reaction with Teir,
One thing I find rather strange about Teir is that just a short while before his "DON'T LEAVE ME!!!!" fit he's actually the one who 'solves the problem' - so to speak - about the lack of tree-cover "Run for the bend ahead."
Wendy's Mender was gorgeous to begin with, but his personality was anoying.
Rereading HY 4, I feel a bit uneasy with his heroworship of Cutter and Leetah.
I still like Windkin, Teir and Shenshen best of all the elves ;)
Arg. Stupid tablet turns all my pics around for some reason :(
I think Mender's developed well...and I think, if he was regaled with stories of Cutter and Leetah as he grew up, it would be hard NOT to have that hero worship. But he's grown up now, and knows better. ;)
travelbug said: Rereading HY 4, I feel a bit uneasy with his heroworship of Cutter and Leetah.
RedheadEmber said: One thing I find rather strange about Teir is that just a short while before his "DON'T LEAVE ME!!!!" fit he's actually the one who 'solves the problem' - so to speak - about the lack of tree-cover "Run for the bend ahead."
I think Teir is representing a Character we have not seen before with his "issues" so to speak. He has to learn to work through them. When you get burned socially as many times as he has and been solo from elves as long as he has, that is a very difficult thing to do.
It is kind of like having a addiction to being a hermit instead of a drug. It' is not that he can't be around them and does not like it; but every time he get's his balance and is standing confident and happy with others he get's the rug yanked out from underneath him so to speak. Chronic repetition like that screws with anyone and not everyone can just brush it off and bounce back right away if every. I feel like seeing Kahvi and talking with her will help him get himself together.
Think of it this way a child given up by their mom or parents that they can remember, possible bounce from home to home or and then stuck on their own alone. Finally learns to trust again after many years (storyarch after wild hunt we don't see much of)
falls in love and plan has a future with said love and family he cares about. Then poof gone with warning.
Sorry my very LOOONG two cents maybe I made a dollar. ^_^
lunakat said: He's just really erratic. Like- sometimes he seems to be okay- and other times he goes ballistic and attacks an army of humans, or cries over his mom in a moment of crisis, or tries to have sex with the leader of the elves while she is trying to make important and urgent decisions, or just plain falls off a cliff because his girlfriend hangs up on him... right at the moment that everyone was about to escape.
lunakat said: or just plain falls off a cliff because his girlfriend hangs up on him...
lunakat said: Tier isn't completely useless. He's just really erratic. Like- sometimes he seems to be okay- and other times he goes ballistic and attacks an army of humans, or cries over his mom in a moment of crisis, or tries to have sex with the leader of the elves while she is trying to make important and urgent decisions, or just plain falls off a cliff because his girlfriend hangs up on him... right at the moment that everyone was about to escape.
Oh I like Delhya's explanation :)
Also, I think we forget for a bit that that in the story it's only been a night, a day and it's sundown/nightfall again, since Teir sniffed Kahvi's braid. Not much time at all to sort out his thoughts and issues and clear his head.
(We, the readers, have waited nearly nine months, ;) )
I hope Kahvi will help Teir with his issues :)
travelbug said: I think we forget for a bit that that in the story it's only been a night, a day and it's sundown/nightfall again, since Teir sniffed Kahvi's braid. Not much time at all to sort out his thoughts and issues and clear his head.
Also very valid points @Heather
And the mystery of who his mother is has been solved. Now, who was his sire?
@Mkal- I'm guessing Windkin.
travelbug said: Oh I like Delhya's explanation
lunakat said: And both Travelbug and Heather made a good point about how brief an amount of time has passed.
I do think we have seen some of Tier's issues before in other elves. Skywise had some issues with abandonment for a while (and I quote- multiple times- "you abandoned me!")- and l'oss of mommy' trauma flashbacks (book 2). Windkin is a case study in the 'mysterious loner' category. I guess that's why Dewshine drew a parallel between him and Tier. And Cutter has experienced denied recognition. Suntop has done the whole 'Winnowil is inside my head' trip. And I know at least one or two elves have spazzed out and done their own thing, launching everyone else into trouble. So Tier isn't the first to have these issues. He just might be the fest character to have them all at once..
Thanks for the link, Thornbrake!
There is this sneaking suspicion I am worried about...that Kahvi isn't Teir's mom (despite him smelling her braid and having a flashback and her calling him duckling). The spoiler was to lead us down that pathway of thinking she is. I want to say the spoiler made it too easy? And I adore/worship Elfmom and Elfpop but they are sneaky..... >:>
*laughs* I think you might have fallen for one too many red herrings? I'm 100% confident they're mother and son now. I don't think they strategically lay out each issue so that there are spoilers in each preview, only to yank them away when the issue comes out. =)) Or at least I hope not!
Seeing her spirit and calling her 'mother' is a pretty strong hint that she's his mom. I actually don't think the Pinis have ever really been that into red herrings. They foreshadow, and the foreshadowing is usually born out.
Elfmom talks about red herrings all the time on Facebook. XD
Tam said: *laughs* I think you might have fallen for one too many red herrings?
I GOT IT!
Teir is gonna be saved by a giant red herring! As in, a literal red herring!
Tam said: Elfmom talks about red herrings all the time on Facebook. XD
I think Red is right!
lunakat said: But how many red herrings have we actually seen in the Wendy-written storylines?
Tam said: If she told us, I think that would defeat the purpose
The closest I remember the Original Quest coming to having red herrings was when Winnowil stated that the Gliders were the 'High Ones' and implied that Blue Mountain was the legendary 'mountain thing.' But even then, as a reader, you kind of knew that wasn't the case. Mostly what I remember Wendy doing is being very good at setting up mysteries and then tying up the lose ends and connecting the dots with a great storytelling flare. She used foreshadowing. She created suspense. But she didn't set you up to expect something that didn't happen, or pull the rug out from under your assumptions. She built up your expectations and then fulfilled them.
lunakat said: Were there a truckload of red herrings in the Original Quest? Because, if so, I don't remember them.
Thornbrake said: The fact that we're still debating (until issue #4 of Final Quest) whether Kahvi is dead, and who Teir's parents are I think is the result of this.
Thornbrake said: Rayek dying in the desert only to turn up with the Go-Backs was a huge red herring.
I think a red herring depends on whether or not an individual reader perceives it that way. If you were fooled, the red herring was successful. I think some of them are still unrevealed in Original Quest, so no one can say how many we've seen, because we don't know how everything will turn out.
But ultimately, I was just teasing @Llannen. :p I think Elfmom's mentions of red herrings causes more anxiety in readers than any actual red herrings in the books.
I have read several posts about fans not really liking Teir. But you know I can see where he is coming from and I can sympathize with him. I know how it feels to be alone and not being able to fit in. When your alone as long as he has been you will understand. I worked a job that seperated me from the public, it starts to wear you.
I do think that Kahvi is his mother and I think...Tyldak is his father. She knew she could not raise him and give him the attention he needed so she adopted him out. Just my thoughts.
Just one question:
What he hell does Kahvi mean "your comely butt"? Have you seen Windkin's butt on the first page? Not exactly what I'd call comely! >:>
RedheadEmber said: What he hell does Kahvi mean "your comely butt"? Have you seen Windkin's butt on the first page? Not exactly what I'd call comely!
I just realized- Dewshine's comparison of Tier to Windkin is all the more apt because Windkin is probably either Tier's brother or father. And they would have similar features or expressions, possibly the same look in the eye, as consequence.
Yeah... actually been thinking about that for a while now. How Dewshine's (seemingly) random mention of Windkin wasn't just a cue that he'd turn up soon, but actually a hint of some sort of relation between him and Teir.
BTW; realise something? If Teir turns out to be Windkin's son, then it'll mean that Dewshine brough her own grandson Down to be basically sacrificed to the shape changed.
Also, it'll be the weirdest family on WoTM.
What, weirder than Winnowill, Smelt and Two Edge? ;-)
Wierder than Newstar, her brother's daughter, Dart and Kimo?
Tam said: I think Elfmom's mentions of red herrings causes more anxiety in readers than any actual red herrings in the books.
RedheadEmber said: How Dewshine's (seemingly) random mention of Windkin wasn't just a cue that he'd turn up soon, but actually a hint of some sort of relation between him and Teir.
lunakat said: Wierder than Newstar, her brother's daughter, Dart and Kimo?
haven't Windkin, Dewshine and Teir already met? I mean in the special. On page 43 (digital) there's a panel on the top with Dewshine, Windkin (reunion) and Teir in it (Well, and Krim, so it has to be before the current events).
Even though Dewshine's question ("I wonder where he [Windkin] is now") seems rather silly, now...
RedheadEmber said: I'd say so, yeah. Dart had a childhood fling with Newstar - which could've been just a result of them being the youngest children, other than Suntop and Ember - then, many years later, after lovemate (Shushen) had died he recognized Serrin (Wing's daughter) and was in a relationship with her, and her other lifemate. Now he's really good friends with Kimo, Newstar's son.
Jerry Springer would have a field day with the elves.
When you think about it; all the elves are involved in some pretty... interesting... family-constellations.
Luckily for them they don't give a flying puckernut about the so-called "weirdness".
Human standards just dont fit the elves. They live to long and are to few for that.
This is one of the big reasons I'm interested in a comprehensive family tree. I like to see where the connections are, because...it amuses me. *laughs* I'm also the family genealogist, so I just like family trees too.
travelbug said: Human standards just dont fit the elves. They live to long and are to few for that.
For me what's weird about the "Dewshine-Family" isn't that some of them are, or might be, somewhat related to each other. It's the fact that the age-relations between them are... messed up. What with Windkin being older than his grandfather and everything.
To the elves, time is nothing much to think about. After all most of them live forever, and even if they dont, they still live a very long time.
Age doesn't mean much in the long run. This is a part of a conversation with Tyleet and Nightfall in Dreamtime:
Nightfall: a mother is always proud of her young. Be they helpless at birth or no, she'll guard them with her life..
Tyleet: ..until they're no longer children. Until they're big enough to be called friends!
As fans, I think we overthink lots of little details, but I guess that's just a part of being a fan ;)
Is it terrible that I'm wholly unimpressed with "Khavi Ex-Machina?" And I'm so unengaged with Teir (or those stupid kids) at this point that I don't really care what his parentage is. I think this EQ series really HAS to be read in collected form because the drawn-out printing schedule is clashing too strongly with the short time passage of the story. Re-reading the original quest in my snazzy new collected edition just draws into focus the superb pacing of those early arcs, not to mention the insane number of story pages in each issue.
I don't think it's terrible, no. ;) But I want to point out that I don't think this is necessarily Kahvi ex-machina. If she wasn't dead, some other spirit would have taken her place in the rescue of Teir. It just wouldn't be as personal.
I do look forward to getting a little distance from the stories, and coming back to them in a big collected graphic novel. :)
maatkare22 said: I think this EQ series really HAS to be read in collected form because the drawn-out printing schedule is clashing too strongly with the short time passage of the story
Elfpop, Thank you very much for explaining the bond of recognition (and the rest too) :)
In the BOTC books it has been said that Recognition could strike any elf. Uncles, nieces, brothers, once, twice removed, it cared not who the parents were, just that the best traits of both elves would show up in the new cub.
Thanks ElfPop!!! You of course got it in a Puckernut shell. ^_^
RichardPini said: Picture yourself hanging by fingernails hanging on the South Rim of the Grand Canyon and suddenly you know, in mind and gut and every nerve-ending you own, that the love of your life has been brutally murdered. And you've telepathically experienced her/his dying, pain- and terror-filled moments.
RichardPini said: We're getting the strong impression that it's difficult, if not impossible, for readers to shift gears - especially the emotional ones - back and forth from storytime to realtime and back again.
RichardPini said: Which is why we grit our teeth and soldier on when people gripe about the seeming superficiality of Teir's drama or Ember's decisions or what have you.... Cutting off Recognition is not like breaking up with your current BFF.
Thornbrake said: I hope you know that 99% of our griping and poking fun of Teir is just a little bit of fun. As I said in the last episode, even though I pick on him a little bit, I personally do actually like Teir and think he's a really interesting character. As we react to specific actions and events, however, without the benefit of the bigger picture or knowing where Teir as a character is going, sometimes we fans might be a little too focused on the here and now, 'cause it's all we got!
alright- just kidding. Tier is okay.
Thornbrake said: I'm also curious to know if you ever got this kind of feedback from prior storylines. Is there something different about how you're telling Final Quest? Are readers today just different?
RichardPini said: Two, because we now have instant digital connection between and among everyone and everything, a new social paradigm has arisen and metastasized. I'm not sure if there's an actual term for it, but it expresses itself as a form of entitlement. If both you and I have equal access to the internet (particularly via social media) then - as we are surely seeing every day - everyone has the ability to say whatever they want, to or about whomever they want, about anything on their minds.
RichardPini saidThere is no filter. Anyone can be as polite or as crude as they want. People will say things from behind a digital veil of anonymity that they would never utter in person. Some assume familiarity where none truly exists, simply because everyone has equal access to Facebook. Or Twitter. Or here. Fandom is nothing like it used to be.
Thornbrake said: I hope you know that 99% of our griping and poking fun of Teir is just a little bit of fun.
Richard Pini wrote:
Cutting off Recognition is not like breaking up with your current BFF. It's a psychic knife to the gut. Picture yourself hanging by fingernails hanging on the South Rim of the Grand Canyon and suddenly you know, in mind and gut and every nerve-ending you own, that the love of your life has been brutally murdered. And you've telepathically experienced her/his dying, pain- and terror-filled moments. That's the kind of grip that Recognition can have, both coming and going.
I'm taking back what I said about Teir having a little dramaqueen moment. I have been re-reading the preview a bunch of times now, and I think it looks more like he's giving up.
Which I was not expecting from him, as I see him as someone who holds on to what he wants.
(He did wait years for Ember to let him back into the tribe)
Elfpop's explanation of Ember and Teir's recognition makes me think Teir gave up hope and stopped fighting, believing Ember has been killed :((
looks like he gets at least two big hits to his head too..
Oh well, one week to go :)
A few of us have gotten early access to the issue, thanks to what I'm guessing is a glitch in the app. Do we wanna discuss here, or new thread?
OMG- no fair. They took it down! Grrr.
Ok- You better discuss- cus I can't read it. Just... maybe make a big note of SPOILER ALERT at the top of your comments, for anyone who doesn't want to have the story spoiled.
Lucky you to get a sneak peak @-)
I woke up today, thinking it was publishing day for #5, only to discover it was another day to wait.
So far there have been a new tread made for the whole issue when it is released, and a different one for front page and previews. I guess it is to keep the spoilers separate from the "waiting for comic release tread" for those who wish to avoid spoilers.
(I love spoilers, bring them on :) )
I got it too! So many answers!
"A few of us have gotten early access to the issue, thanks to what I'm guessing is a glitch in the app. Do we wanna discuss here, or new thread?"
It is always okay to start a new thread, especially when talking about whole issues vs the previews.
I started one here http://www.elfquest.com/forums/discussion/8499/fq-issue-5-spoilers#latest
travelbug said: I woke up today, thinking it was publishing day for #5, only to discover it was another day to wait.
Heather said: It is always okay to start a new thread, especially when talking about whole issues vs the previews.
Anyone else having trouble with the Dark Horse app? The issue is there but the price won't load. So frustrating...
I had to try twice
Meh, still didn't work after several tries. Ended up driving out to a comic shop.
@DanWillig yes, apparently Dark Horse was having problems on the back end with their app. Seems to be fixed now. I was able to download the issue early this morning.