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The Final Quest cover 7

Rob

That's one of my favorite sciencey things about Kings. Nothing happens that changes the established timeline. The palace might not even have jumped through time at all: it and its contents could have simply moved into an invisible, frozen, zero-entropic state, out of view, existing on some different frequency during the present, until a certain moment came to pass.

That's not to say it hasn't traveled through time, of course - it is sent backwards at the very beginning of Elfquest.

Unless we decide that spacetime is a Möbius loop. Then we've got that covered, too :D

lunakat

Rob said: That's not to say it hasn't traveled through time, of course - it is sent backwards at the very beginning of Elfquest.


That was one of the coolest things about the story- the palace, thrown backward in time, attracts itself to investigate- to get thrown backward in time- to attract itself...

RedheadEmber

Wasn't it the other way around? It got thrown back in time because it got attracted to itself?

Eyeshigh

It is the chicken and the egg...

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: Wasn't it the other way around? It got thrown back in time because it got attracted to itself?


Yes- it works both ways. It attracted itself because it was attracted to itself, causing itself to be thrown back in time to later attract itself.

RedheadEmber

@-)

lunakat

On a side note- isn't it remarkable how much more buff Cutter looks than Skywise? Wow.

jeb

I'm confused about why Sunstream says they "learned they can't unweave what's been woven." Didn't the only reason it didn't work before was because they convinced Rayek NOT to try? Is there any reason to believe he wouldn't have succeeded if he'd wanted to? It wasn't like some cosmic force acted and blocked him, or circumstances conspired the bring about the same outcome despite his efforts.

Dio

I don't see any difference between some "cosmic force" or it being Rayek's own decision in the end. The outcome stays the same.
Only in our imagination may one thing seem more powerful than the other. And we can still ask: what if...
But we will never know, because it did not happen.
And that in the end the events happened just as well or just because, is very much proof to me that it cannot be undone.

jeb

To me there's a big difference between being unable to do something and choosing not to. And a folly of logic to say that because I chose not to do something that it can't be done.

Sifra

I really hope there will be no more time travelling and there are enough Cutters in the story for my taste... :P
I'm very interested in the whole thing having to do with immortality (Moonshade) and death (the dead elves playing part in the story).

Dio

I agree that it is a big difference.
What I mean is that the outcome makes no difference and the question "what if..." has no meaning, because it simply IS not. How can I explain what I mean...rather not with logic, but a feeling of fate or being destined.
Sorry, if these may not be the right terms. I am not a native speaker.

jeb

I think I understand what you mean. However it happened, the outcome was the same and there's no way at this point of knowing if it would have been possible. That's where I have the problem. Sunstream isn't saying they don't know if it can be done, he's saying it can't be done. And I'm just wondering why he's so sure.

lunakat

jeb said: Sunstream isn't saying they don't know if it can be done, he's saying it can't be done. And I'm just wondering why he's so sure.


Maybe the High Ones tried it and he read it in the scroll somewhere? I agree- the Rayek situation didn't really demonstrate that it can't be done. (Probably there was a good argument to that that it shouldn't be done- since, if Rayek had succeeded, he would have wiped out generations worth of life.) Sunstream must have some outside information that we, as readers, aren't privy to.

Eyeshigh

But Rayek went foreward in time, not backward! If it were possible, I think travelling foreward in time would be easier then going back, but that is not saying it can't be done, right? Who knows, maybe one must travel back in time, because some events will not happen if one doesn't!? Again, you come full circle, did things happen because I went back in time? Or did I change it? Only the timetraveller would know.

Maybe Sunstream means, going back could change things too much, erase people to a point that they wouldn't even have existed, that was what Rayek would have done if he had gone tru with his plan. And so they decided, no timetravel!

jeb

That's an excellent point - the only time-travel that's actually been attempted is to go forward (to change the past. :-? ) But that makes Sunstream's comment make even less sense.

lunakat

Well, the high ones went back in time to crash land. I think that counts as time travel.

I think they (meaning- the coneheads) must have tried it at some point in the past. Skywise and Sunstream have been studying the scrolls for years. They probably read something somewhere that Rayek didn't have the time to discover.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: Well, the high ones went back in time to crash land. I think that counts as time travel.


I thought they crashed back in time. The crash brought them back in time.

lunakat

Yes- I was just bringing it up to counter Jeb's statement that the only time travel to happen was into the future. No it wasn't - because the very first thing the high ones did was crash in the past. And beyond that, they traveled through space for thousands of years- who knows what else they may have tried?

jeb

Makes me want to re-read KOTBW again to see what exactly was known of the palace's time-traveling abilities before Rayek took it forward in time.

In another thread there's the discussion about the distinction between events that are unique and common. Was the palace's jump back through time to crash a unique occurrence brought about by the particular circumstances of the troll's actions, exposing a previously unknown ability of the palace? If that was the case, it doesn't seem like it should have been so easy for Rayek to recreate that function. Although you could argue that he had the knowledge and expertise of the original crashers to guide him, assuming their spirits are somewhere in the palace.

Or was time-travel a common function of the palace? Timmain's emphasis on time in many of her comments makes it seem like it was. If that's the case, then maybe Sunstream had seen that in the scrolls and he wasn't referring to Rayek's attempt to meld the palaces but to the cone-head's previous knowledge. But then, wouldn't Rayek have had that same knowledge, since he seemed to be in the same level of training in use of the Palace as Sunstream is in Discovery?

I kind of wish they had just said it was a one-shot thing and left it at that. Can you imagine being immortal and in possession of a time machine? Eventually you really would have been everywhere and seen everything.

lunakat

jeb said: Makes me want to re-read KOTBW again to see what exactly was known of the palace's time-traveling abilities before Rayek took it forward in time.


Rayek made some comments at the beginning of book 5- when Kahvi was trying to get him to leave the scroll room. Those might be worth revisiting. He apparently learned a little about quantum physics and relativity from the scroll.

But Kings seems to be the first time it ever occurred to him to use the Palace to change events.

jeb said: it doesn't seem like it should have been so easy for Rayek to recreate that function. Although you could argue that he had the knowledge and expertise of the original crashers to guide him, assuming their spirits are somewhere in the palace.

I think that was the premise. He was able to do it because he was in exactly the place he needed to be, and he had the cry of that moment from the future and past ringing in his brain like a beacon. He just followed it. That's why he only got one chance and had to time it so closely.

jeb said: If that's the case, then maybe Sunstream had seen that in the scrolls and he wasn't referring to Rayek's attempt to meld the palaces but to the cone-head's previous knowledge. But then, wouldn't Rayek have had that same knowledge, since he seemed to be in the same level of training in use of the Palace as Sunstream is in Discovery?

Not necessarily. Sunstream and Skywise were learning under the teachings of Timmain and Savah. Rayek had to figure it all out on his own. They also had a lot more time studying in the Palace than Rayek- and they had the luxury of progressing at their own pace.

jeb said: Can you imagine being immortal and in possession of a time machine? Eventually you really would have been everywhere and seen everything.

Excellent point. Perhaps this is why the Coneheads considered mass suicide.

Knightbird

After seeing the preview for Final Quest #6 the thought of Windkin seeking out Venka to tell her about her mother sounds right. Not to mention, also let her know she has a brother.

manga

Jeb, I don't think the Palace's ability to travel in time was unknown to the Coneheads. Timmain told Rayek in book five that "time is just things and places to put them," and in "How Shall I Keep From Singing?" Sefra said they were "a full turn of the spiral early!" (Emphasis in original.) This points strongly to regular time-travel.

[edit: rant removed.]

Though in other news, it's interesting to watch as Cutter and Company realize that Rayek was right and staying is not a viable long-term strategy.

lunakat

manga said: Though in other news, it's interesting to watch as Cutter and Company realize that Rayek was right and staying is not a viable long-term strategy.


Rayek's strategy wasn't simply leaving- it was going back into the past to eradicate generations worth of life and wipe out anyone who wasn't in the Palace with him when he did this- which ultimately happened to include everyone except Skywise, Leetah, Ekuar, Timmain, Suntop and Ember. And he was going to do this without consulting anyone else. Like seriously - just commit flat out genocide. Not the same thing.

lunakat

Cutter asked him if it was possible to collect every last living preserver, elf and troll on the planet- and he said no. So in what category does that place his plan? Not to mention all of the spirits he would have wiped out. And that's even if he had succeeded in doing it the way he initially wanted. Can we say 'poorly conceived and not thought through'?

manga

You're misunderstanding my point, Lunakat. His actions were wrong. But his point, that Abode has its own path and the elves are not part of it, seems to be pretty solid.

lunakat

Okay- That makes sense! Yes- he was right, it seems.

Thornbrake

@Manga, good to have you back defending our dear (or dearly hated) Rayek! I hope we see him soon!

Startear

Aroree must get so cold every time she floats upward. That coat she is wearing will allow wind to come in from below, and that must be cold.

RedheadEmber

Obviously she's wearing woolen undies!

RichardPini

Startear said: Aroree must get so cold every time she floats upward. That coat she is wearing will allow wind to come in from below, and that must be cold.


OK, that suggested a bit of fan art. Recall the iconic image of Marilyn Monroe standing over the subway grate, with the hot air from below causing her skirt to billow up. Sounds like Aroree could easily be in the same situation! ;)

RedheadEmber

I'm starting to think there'll be a time-skip between issue 6 and this one.
Look at the following quote:

The powerful psychic Sunstream assumes the role of his race's "link" to all elves, galvanizing the World of Two Moons' secretive tribes.


Then look at this quote from Sunstream (in issue 1):

With Korafay well grown, I'll be completing my training with the High One and Savah.


The fact that he assumes his role as "the link" at least to me indicates that he - by the time of issue 7 - has completed his training, and he says that he will be completing his training, not that it's something he's already done. He hasn't had a whole lot of time for completing any training during the first 6 issues, not to mention that he'd probably need more than a few days.

travelbug

I think there will be a timegap.
It makes sense because it gives Sunstream time to finish this training, and Angrif time to build his ships, and it takes time to build ships.
(I think I read somewhere that big ships were buildt in 3-4 years or so back in the 1800s.)

Angrif may go after the elves after the palace have left with those who wish to go to the stars. That would make life hard and dangerous for those left behind

travelbug

Maybe this next story arc is about who stays, who goes, and the third story arc is about Angrif attacking the elves?

RedheadEmber

One thing I forgot:
It also gives Windkin time to not only go off in search of Venka and co. but also - judging by the cover - actually find them.

travelbug

I assumed he would go to them in a pod, instead of flying of on his own across the Wastdeep water

Weaver

This is Windkin we're talking about. Pods!? We don't need no stinking pods!...only faux wings

RedheadEmber

The fact that he's wearing fake wings seems to indicate that he's searching the natural way.

Embala

From the Prologue I got the impression that the pod pilot envisions it's destination - and the pod goes there in almost no time. It's like traveling through a wormhole or in hyperspace or in a warp bubble. What grants fast transportation disqualifies for a search plane.

As long as Sunstream has not "linked" to Venka and they can head for a known place they'll have to do the search the traditional way.

lunakat

They must not be able to search like that- because the high ones weren't able to find their long lost fellow pods-people... and the current crop of elves has not determined yet if others of their kind are elsewhere on the WoTM. They are waiting for Sunstream to plug in.

Hey- I just had a crazy thought. What if Skywise is about to recognize Shen Shen? Like- that never occurred to me because it seems so absurd. But- it would totally explain Jinx, wouldn't it? Green eyes, white hair... flesh shaping and healing... except she seems really pale, so what gives there? But still...

lunakat

Actually- I didn't think of that myself. Someone on facebook did. But it would still explain Jink- and this cover. I seriously hope that doesn't happen.


lunakat

Maybe Skywise hooks up with Korafaye. That would also explain Jink.

jorenm93

Shenshen is not a healer? (not a "magical" one)

lunakat

Neither was Rainsong. It ran in the family though.

jorenm93

Yeah okay, true :) But Shenshen's offspring would have a darker skin, I suppose

Embala

Jink is a shape changer. And a "mind sweeper". Actually she can be everyone's child ... and changed her appearance. And has forgotten about her original look. *teasing*

jorenm93

Really? I never read those future, rebels, jink comics... Not really 'Elfquest' for me

Embala

Really.

Jink is enough of a shape changer to switch between elfin and human appearance easily. She did not actually change her color scheme in this process but it would be logical that she COULD if she want to.

And she CAN "sweep mind" - means make peolpe forget what happened. The uses this ability frequently on Humans, on herself ... and accidentally on her father (in case her nightmare told true).

My remark was meant not quite serious but based on known facts. :)

Zeina

I always thought she looked like a perfect cross between Cutter and Skywise in all honesty.

Knightbird

Zeina said: I always thought she looked like a perfect cross between Cutter and Skywise in all honesty.


That would be a trick...because you know, they did recognized. LOL.

RedheadEmber

So... for about 500 years there was an elf-spirit who couldn't be born because the two souls who recognized to create it (her) just happened to both be males. The child can/could only be born when the elves learn(ed) to use a surrogate mother.

Tam

Try 10,000 years, since her spirit didn't go into wrapstuff or anything. ;) Though time doesn't work the same way for spirits, I think.

MrsGrizzley

Guys... the Palace is making the Sun Folk taller and paler. If Jink IS the daughter of ShenShen and Skywise it makes perfect sense for her to be pale if she grew up in the Palace.

Not saying that I agree with the theory, just pointing out that it's possible and legitimately explainable.

RedheadEmber

Tam said: Try 10,000 years, since her spirit didn't go into wrapstuff or anything. ;) Though time doesn't work the same way for spirits, I think.


I knew there was something wrong with the 500 years.

lunakat

MrsGrizzley said: Guys... the Palace is making the Sun Folk taller and paler. If Jink IS the daughter of ShenShen and Skywise it makes perfect sense for her to be pale if she grew up in the Palace.


oh my god- that didn't even occur to me. I was actually just throwing out an idea I figured could work but seemed highly unlikely... but yeah, you are right. That's completely plausible.

I don't really like them as a couple, but... she does have padding.

RedheadEmber

Not to mention that they both seem to like playing the field - so to speak. Entirely possible that they'd end up together at one point.

manga

So... for about 500 years there was an elf-spirit who couldn't be born because the two souls who recognized to create it (her) just happened to both be males. The child can/could only be born when the elves learn(ed) to use a surrogate mother.


Oh ye of little imagination... ;)

wingthing

Are you thinking what I think you're thinking? (A little flesh shaping a la Rogue's Curse when Winnowill took over Rayek's body? Brrr... that storyline freaked me out so much.)

See, I could so get behind that - as long as Cutter is the one with the womb! I want to him to say to Jink "Don't you remember me, cub? I'm your mother!"

manga

Heehee, why don't you go and find out, Wingthing? ;)

wingthing

Oh god... The inner lizard as biological hacker - my first thought was "Wait what? I don't get... OHHHH!"
Best punchline set up evah! =D>

manga

\m/ Thank you. This snippet has been in my mind for some time and Redhead Ember's comment was just the perfect trigger. :)

RedheadEmber

manga said: Oh ye of little imagination... ;)


Obviously the elves will figure it out eventually, because of Jink.
:) + ;) = X:)

Stargazer1

Remember the scene when Leetah was helping Nightfall and Redlance conceive, and Cutter and Skywise had that little snippet of conversation about their own recognition? "For you and me I should hope to say so"...the Pinis did Say there was foreshadowing everywhere...

Weaver

Yes! http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=25299

RedheadEmber

That's awesome.

lunakat

Yes! Entirely awesome. Preview spoilers...


I wonder what other surprises Two Edge has in his bag?

I love seeing Venka and her people. Glad someone finally remembered to track her down. But...

Ug! Still no explanation as to why Cutter and Skywise are half naked on the cover! That must be revealed on page 5.

lunakat

Venka does seem to be the only one of Kahvi's children who had a good relationship with their mother.

RedheadEmber

Preview Spoilers:




lunakat said: Ug! Still no explanation as to why Cutter and Skywise are half naked on the cover! That must be revealed on page 5.


Naah. Page 5 will be Windkin telling Venka that "BTW, Kahvi and I had a kid together. He's Ember's lifemate. Oh and, Aroree. Tyldak's dead too."

lunakat

awkward...

Embala

A wonderful start for the new round! :)

I love the art ... and the developement in the Go-Backs. Great to see Two-Edge envolved. The reference to the "drean shield" is awesome.


EDIT: ROFL ... NOW my post sounds rather sarkastic (missed some of the replies)!

captainvimes

Whenever I read comments saying the story feels rushed, based on this preview I kinda agree. Within 2 pages and a few text-balloons Windkin finds the gobacks, confronts Aroreee with the abduction, mentions Winnowill and tells Venka that her mother is dead. Also Two-edge. It would have been nice if story had had some more room to breathe when it handles these rather large and important moments. Not trying to sound like a negative nancy or ungrateful, but I can't help but notice.

That said, can I just say that I love love love the inking? Art-wise it's a total nod to the way the gobacks and their lodge were drawn in the original quest, that smokey gritty feel. Very very cool...

Also, Venka, yay!!!!

Knightbird

captainvimes said: Whenever I read comments saying the story feels rushed, based on this preview I kinda agree. Within 2 pages and a few text-balloons Windkin finds the gobacks, confronts Aroreee with the abduction, mentions Winnowill and tells Venka that her mother is dead. Also Two-edge.


If the story feels kind of rushed this might be part of it. We (as fans), who have enjoyed the Original Quest as well as 'Siege at Blue Mountain' and 'Kings of the Broken Wheel' may not have payed to much attention to the page count. They average about 30 pages per comic story line. 'The Final Quest' (up to #6) is averaging about 21 pages. Yea...I know I felt like I was missing something too. That is one of the reasons why Marvel released the Original Quest in 32 comics, not 20 like the WaRP (not counting #21). But you know that is 'the nature of the beast' when dealing with other companies. You just have so many pages to deal with.

manga

lunakat said: Venka does seem to be the only one of Kahvi's children who had a good relationship with their mother.


Oh, look, I think I'm getting the hang of this quoting thing. I have to contradict you, Luna. Vaya and Kahvi seemed to get on just fine.

As for the preview: All I can think is, "Dang, Rayek. Good work!" Venka is awesome. (I know he had little to do with that, technically, but his coloring on her is also pretty stunning.)

It does seem a little rushed. It also feels like I want more each time. I kind of resent how much of the page was given over to that flashback scene of Aroree giving Windkin to Winnowicked. (Not saying her name right in deference to Aroree's wishes.)

Weaver

I wonder what's behind Venka's pause. "and only comes up to...talk to me". More Jink parentage speculation in 5, 4, 3, 2...

wingthing

manga said: I have to contradict you, Luna. Vaya and Kahvi seemed to get on just fine.


... really? Every time we saw them "on screen" as it were, they were either snipping at each other, physically injuring each other (hello, mace to the hip!) or you know, refusing to show any loving emotion until confronted with the corpse of the other.

Oh, I've no doubt they loved each other... in their Klingon way. I just never saw the "getting on" like between Kahvi and Venka.


captainvimes said: Within 2 pages and a few text-balloons Windkin finds the gobacks, confronts Aroreee with the abduction, mentions Winnowill and tells Venka that her mother is dead.


Windkin's social skills haven't improved in the 20 odd years he's been back at Father Tree, I see. He just goes blurting out whatever comes into his head. "Aroree - hey, you're the one kidnapped me 10,000 years ago. But hey no biggie, even though I brought it up." "So Venka, Two-Edge lives here, interesting - yeah, your mother's dead."

lunakat

wingthing said: ... really? Every time we saw them "on screen" as it were, they were either snipping at each other, physically injuring each other (hello, mace to the hip!) or you know, refusing to show any loving emotion until confronted with the corpse of the other.

Oh, I've no doubt they loved each other... in their Klingon way. I just never saw the "getting on" like between Kahvi and Venka.


I agree. The little line of "I proved myself to myself long ago- remember?" carried lots of implications. Not the least of which being that Vaya as Kahvi's daughter was always in the process o proving herself to her mother.

wingthing said: Windkin's social skills haven't improved in the 20 odd years he's been back at Father Tree, I see. He just goes blurting out whatever comes into his head. "Aroree - hey, you're the one kidnapped me 10,000 years ago. But hey no biggie, even though I brought it up." "So Venka, Two-Edge lives here, interesting - yeah, your mother's dead."


Yeah.. I don't think Windkin had any real experience with Two Edge to know how and why he was so relevant.

Say.. when Venka tells Two Edge he 'took a dream' of hers and 'made it real'- is her shield the shield from her dream? The one in which she flies about the Sunfolk and the Go Backs both?

Embala

We have not seen the front of Venka's dream shield (while Kahvi's held it it has a stag head) ... so we do not kow if he pictured what only Venka herself could see.

I like the thought that she shared this dream with him, descrived the shild, her dual nature if ice (Kahvi) and sun (Savah) ... and Two-Edge united it in an artful shield. That his creativity is not limited to inventions, better killing instruments and riddles ...

RedheadEmber

wingthing said: ... really? Every time we saw them "on screen" as it were, they were either snipping at each other, physically injuring each other (hello, mace to the hip!) or you know, refusing to show any loving emotion until confronted with the corpse of the other.

Oh, I've no doubt they loved each other... in their Klingon way. I just never saw the "getting on" like between Kahvi and Venka.


We never got to see how their relationship was when Vaya was little. By the time they're introduced Vaya is already an adult and probably wouldn't have wanted Kahvi to show her any special consideration.
As Kahvi said to Rayek while she was pregnant with Venka: "Children come into the World through us, they don't belong to us."
And let's not forget that the Mace to the hip was to safe her.




lunakat said: Say.. when Venka tells Two Edge he 'took a dream' of hers and 'made it real'- is her shield the shield from her dream? The one in which she flies about the Sunfolk and the Go Backs both?


I think so. That shield was flaming so maybe that's Two-Edge's next surprise. 8-X

travelbug

Maybe this issue isn't especially about Windkin finding the Gobacks and telling Venka about Kahvi?
That part may be just a tiny detail in the big story that needs to be told, and may be there simply to put everybody where they need to be when Sunstream sends out the call.

I hope we get to see more of Venka and Two-Edge. I found their relationship in Shards interresting.

Embala

Just my thoughts, travelbug. Wendy still needs to gather her cast and put them in place. The Final Quest is supposed to happen in 4 chapter à 6 issues, right? And one chapter is already told. No time for a Venka quest. :( Yes, I miss the "30+ pages per issue time spoil us" time ... I love we get another story arc!

And I hope we will learn more about the Venka/Two-Edge relationship and learn about Two-Edge's developement - and his decisions.


On a very different not: I've just remembered that some an member used to call Brill's child to be "Mar-y-sol" - Sea and Sun. Could it be that this is actually the meaning of Kor-a-fay?

Zinegirl

Is it just me or does Aroree look a bit odd in the last panel... Her legs seem too long and she looks very thin.

But it's great to see Venka again! I like the inking and colors btw.

RedheadEmber

Embala said: The Final Quest is supposed to happen in 4 chapter à 6 issues, right?


I think it's five vollumes of six issues, at least. :)



Zinegirl said: Is it just me or does Aroree look a bit odd in the last panel... Her legs seem too long and she looks very thin.


She is very thin. :((

manga

wingthing said: ... really? Every time we saw them "on screen" as it were, they were either snipping at each other, physically injuring each other (hello, mace to the hip!) or you know, refusing to show any loving emotion until confronted with the corpse of the other.

Oh, I've no doubt they loved each other... in their Klingon way. I just never saw the "getting on" like between Kahvi and Venka.


I was just rereading book 4 last night, actually, looking for something else. Vaya and Khavi weren't constantly sniping. Khavi was even complimentary. In a scene of Clearbrook practicing for the coming war, Khavi says "See? Vaya's not used to being put on her guard." She openly and ungrudgingly acknowledges Vaya's skills. Yes it was a bit of a reveal that Vaya was her daughter but then, we don't know how old Vaya was.

Of course this doesn't compare with the warmth we see with Nightfall and Tyleet or Leetah and Toorah, but it's hardly the worst mother-and-grown child relationship. (I think we all agree Winnowill and Two-Edge walk away with THAT prize.) Actually, I don't see any more OR less "getting on" between Khavi and Venka than between Kahvi and Vaya.

And I have to say, I don't see a lot of interaction with Venka and Khavi at all. Khavi left Venka's life when Venka was 28 (by my count) and the last thing she said was, essentially "Oh, and btw, you don't have to kill your father. Just bash a lesson through his thick skull."

sulken

Somehow elves like to come to the topic of Windkin's name (most of all, he himself). How often in the Future Quest issues he points, that he still uses Windkin, even though he neither cares nor remember it all the time? :P

lunakat

manga said: In a scene of Clearbrook practicing for the coming war, Khavi says "See? Vaya's not used to being put on her guard." She openly and ungrudgingly acknowledges Vaya's skills.


How is that complimentary? I saw it as a criticism of her ability to defend herself. Like she wasn't up to the task.

Any time we saw them interact, Kahvi was disparaging Vaya- and Vaya was trying to prove something. And I quote:

"See? Vaya's not used to being put on her guard." (As opposed to- "Good job, warriors!")

Or "Foolish cub- what are you trying to prove?"

Followed by "I proved myself to myself long ago, remember?"

Yeah right. They don't say one positive word to each other. It's all competition and high expectations that never get reached. You can tell they love each other- because they are both willing to die for each other. Vaya does die for Kahvi... and Kahvi would have died rather than let Vaya do that. But... it's not a warm mother-daughter relationship. Maybe because of the tough environment... maybe because Kahvi expected Vaya to take her place? Who knows.

lunakat

manga said: And I have to say, I don't see a lot of interaction with Venka and Khavi at all. Khavi left Venka's life when Venka was 28 (by my count) and the last thing she said was, essentially "Oh, and btw, you don't have to kill your father. Just bash a lesson through his thick skull."


"All of the best there was in Rayek, and none of the worst, I see in you."

"What should I do mother that would please you best?"

Major contrast.

Also, Kahvi affectionately watching Venka play with Tyleet:
"A Shape-changed high one! No better nurse for our two, prize fawns."

and, with pride: "Hah! Venka brushes Winnowil's sending off like dust. Think how she'll humble Rayek when she gets the chance."

And finally- she relieves her of the obligation to do so.

Zeina

Windkin's social skills haven't improved in the 20 odd years he's been back at Father Tree, I see. He just goes blurting out whatever comes into his head. "Aroree - hey, you're the one kidnapped me 10,000 years ago. But hey no biggie, even though I brought it up." "So Venka, Two-Edge lives here, interesting - yeah, your mother's dead."


Right? He's so weird. He hasn't recognized yet, right? He's into Ahdri....does anyone think they will recognize? It would be really weird if he recognized Aroree, but it would be kind of interesting.

Thornbrake

In another thread, @manga wrote

: And I have grave suspicions about the path Moonshade is going to take. Frankly, I suspect her of not choosing to lose her wolfblood but choosing to shed her skin entirely. Everything is getting turned on its head. Which Wendy has certainly given us plenty of warning about.


Wow, that thought never crossed my mind. But that would be mind-blowing, but also make a certain sort of sense.

manga

Windkinsaid: Aroree - hey, you're the one kidnapped me 10,000 years ago.


Can I just say that's some memory for an infant? He was what, a year old at the time??

@thornbrake: I'm basing this on a few things. 1) If Moonshade is truly searching for "peace," then the only place to find it is in the "Beyond." The Palace is lovely but demonstrably not proof against disaster. 2) Moonshade and Strongbow's shared dream from "Dreamtime" shows the wolf left completely alone. This COULD represent Moonshade staying in the Palace but that doesn't seem as final a separation to me as her abandoning life altogether would.

@Lunakat, wow, you and I read that totally differently. Kahvi was making the point that Cutter had become richer for a warrior who hungered for revenge. She then points out that Clearbrook's opponent, Vaya, is not used to being put on her guard. If Vaya, the Go-Back fighter, is not used to being put on her guard that means she's better than just about every troll OR other Go-Back she fights. Kahvi is saying "Look, your tribemate is better than even my best warrior."

I'm not saying that Vaya and Khavi had a warm, loving relationship. I don't think Khavi had that kind of relationship with ANYone, even Tyldak. Just that they both found it as satisfying as they wanted.

captainvimes

@Manga, moonshade shedding her skin, wow... I can actually see that happen, something the Pini's would 'do to us' ;) Never thought about that.
That would be something very very interesting indeed, and maybe also a reason that Cutter looked so shocked in that teaser image..? (although I still think that will have something to do with Sunstream's open sending and cutter feeling a certain link that has him thoroughly spooked).

It could also explain why Strongbow was in the palace in that Future quest teaser bit from years ago!

lunakat

Suicide? Or preserver wrapping and a long-term "going out"? What Leetah called a 'living death'...

@Manga- Yeah, but... she didn't say "You've beaten my best warrior" (which would have complimented them both). She complimented Clearbrook by taking a jab at Vaya.

I think that's just the kind of mom she was- practical.. and insensitive. The kind of mom who would jump in front of a raging bear for you, but doesn't care one lick if she says something that hurts your feelings- you're not a wimp and you should be able to handle the truth.

Zeina

I dunno, I always took Vaya and Khavi's relationship as typical Go Back relations: They're not exactly known for their demonstrative warmth. In the scene where Khavi was holding Vaya's body, crying, after the war was over...it was kind of beautiful.

With Venka, she was more bonded partly due to no longer being amidst the Go Backs, and being very out of her element when she was searching for Rayek to kick his ass and ended up staying with the Wolfriders. When she was with Cutter and sharing furs, he told her : You miss being chief. And she said something along the lines of I'm not good with needing or missing anything. I do believe those years spent away from the Go Backs sort of allowed her relationship with Venka to become more bonded in obvious ways (no distractions and not as much pressure to be all Go Back icy with her feelings). But I really always felt Khavi felt very close to Vaya as well. It was just that the circumstances were different.

Khavi always struck me as the type to bond more closely with female offspring.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: "See? Vaya's not used to being put on her guard." (As opposed to- "Good job, warriors!")


But she says that Vaya is not used to being put on her guard. Which - at least to me - means that usually Vaya whipes the floor with the other warriors when they spar.



lunakat said: Or "Foolish cub- what are you trying to prove?"


As in "You don't need to prove yourself to me. I already know that you're my best warrior."





manga said: Can I just say that's some memory for an infant? He was what, a year old at the time??



Skywise remembered his mother despite being only a few moments old when she died.
Besides; we don't know if Windkin remembered, or if it was simply Dewshine and Scouter telling him about it.

travelbug

I think Windkin remembered Auroree's face, not so much what she did.

Eyeshigh

They can remember through sending, right?! Dewshine and Scouter could have told him about her and they shared their memory through sending. Just like Tyleet did when she shared her memory of Patch.

I love Venka's outfit, when Aroree was flying I liked hers, but her indooroutfit is bitt off... I know she still is a Glider, but I think she is still too much like one of the chosen eight. I liked her outfit during Shards the most.

Btw. Who says these 4 teaserpages are the first of the next issue?
Maybe we first get a hot summer, or maybe were the Wolfriders life it is summer?

Knightbird

I was walking pass the fridge this morning and took a quick look at my January calender (cover #7 is taped up next to it)...and thought "huh, Skywise and Cutter are going to have a kid and and ShenShen and telling Leetah, 'damn I have to to deliver this baby.'"

RichardPini

RedheadEmber said: I think it's five vollumes of six issues, at least.


Current projection is for four volumes, each containing 6 issues. (Excepting, of course, the first collection which also contains the preview issue.)

manga

lunakat said: @Manga- Yeah, but... she didn't say "You've beaten my best warrior" (which would have complimented them both). She complimented Clearbrook by taking a jab at Vaya.


But she wasn't talking to Clearbrook or Vaya about their sparring. She was talking to Cutter about Clearbrook's value as a warrior. And again, it's not a jab to say that someone is not used to having to be on the defensive.

Speaking (admittedly on another thread) about "Elfquest" and weirdness... ME defending KHAVI is a really weird thing in itself! "She's a celf-centered psycho she-wolf but she wasn't psycho in that way?" ;) =))

lunakat

I do think it was a typical Go Back relationship. I just don't think those tend to be very emotionally supportive ones. As far as the Go Backs are concerned, I sort of picture parents expecting their kids to toughen up and prove themselves. Kahvi seemed to have that kind of interaction with Vaya. But she seemed pretty approving from the start with Venka.

Consider, also, the fact that none of the Wolfriders or Leetah even realized that Vaya was Kahvi's daughter until Rayek told them. She can't have been very demonstrably affectionate if that was the case.

RedheadEmber

But would Vaya have wanted that?

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