OK, those of us that read Final Quest #7 have seen what Shenshen has decided to do.
Shenshen is now in human form. Her yearning to bring babies into the world made her come to this decision.
Now here is what has started to swim around my brain.
Shenshen has wished for a child of her own.
Shenshen is human.
Skywise used to fool around with her.
Skywise might still fool around with her because...Skywise.
In human form, Recognition might not be necessary.
Do you all see where I am going with this?
I dunno where I'd draw the line there. Mender in human form could still do elfy things, like send. I'm guessing Shenshen will be the same. Like she said, a shape is just a shape...I don't think it'll grant any reproductive advantage for her.
If it DOES though, if she could have a child more easily outside of Recognition, maybe it wouldn't be with Skywise. I would guess that if it does give her that advantage, that her body's "hum" would slow to a human's rate, and she may find being with Skywise unbearable.
I am thinking of another topic that we have all been speculating about...JINK!
I thought you meant Jink too :)
But I am curious also about all kinds of hybrids now as well ;)
Mkal said: I am thinking of another topic that we have all been speculating about...JINK!
Do you think there will be hybrids?
I remember somewhat cloudy Richard and Wendy having said that there will not be half-elves. (Possibly not their exact words)
I was thinking maybe the humans who can send in Future Quest are descendants of humans healed by elves.
Ember said Shuna, Tingeh and Koorbasi have some elf magic in them after being healed.
Maybe it can by passed down from parent to child?
She only changed her outside, so inside she is still elf, only not looking like one.
Timmain changed at every level into a wolf, thus being able to concieve....
Wendy and Richard stated no human-elf-hybrids would ever be possible!
I do believe that a human touched by the healingpowers of an elf will carry magic inside them, specially the ones who are made long-lived, like Shuna and Khorbasi...
My thought now is that perhaps Jink inherited some small form of shapeshifting so that she can change her form from elf to human, as she tends to do...maybe this is indicative of her relation to Timmain, or maybe she's a product of many elves who've chosen to take human form...or maybe it's something entirely different!
Eyeshigh said: Wendy and Richard stated no human-elf-hybrids would ever be possible!
Another thought: What would happen if Shenshen were to fall in love with a human? Could it work?
Sure- for maybe a good fifty years. (What's human life span at this point on Abode?)
Good question @Mkal. Could be. I like the idea of ShenShen being Jink's mother, but I don't know...
But what about Windkin? Tyldak had wings, he didn't.... and Jink is an elf, not an elf born looking human....
I just hope we will see Jink in the FQ, then finally we have some answers ;) :)
Shenshen's love for fun and a good time might get her in trouble with humans. Humans dont share like elves do.
I guess she could fall in love with a human, but it would be troublesome when she dont age at all over the years. What if her body still hum at the elves level?
I think if we get to see Jink at all in Final Questit will be at the end, if Final Quest includes the elves journey in the palace. Jink was born in the palace, while the elves were travelling through space.
Her story may not be told until Future Quest continiues
Eyeshigh said: Jink is an elf, not an elf born looking human....
Need to re-read Jink, but I thought she shape-changed herself to look human with humanears and fivefingered hands/ feet and all...
Eyeshigh said: Need to re-read Jink, but I thought she shape-changed herself to look human with humanears and fivefingered hands/ feet and all...
I found this one, think it will explain her looks...
That she is a shape-changer like that it is making me wonder if that maybe she might be the daughter of a healer...
Timmain is a shape-changer without healing abilities. So is Kimo.
When I look at her, I just see Cutter. It's not just the hair though.
Maybe she's just a clone, using a bit of the gene material of all the elves!
(This post should not be taken too seriously.)
=)) =)) =))
I am wondering however if others will follow ShenShen, I don't think so, but didn't Tyleet dreamed of being accepted by humans?
I think Tyleet and maybe Pool may chose human form. I dont imagine Scouter and Dewshine follow them though.
Tyleet's dream was Little Patch running away from her, she went searching for him among the humans, but did not find him until Olbar Mountaintall lifted her up on his shoulder and she learned the human language, got Little Patch back and suddenly had five fingers on each hand.
I wish Pike would go with Shenshen as a human, because they are adorable together, but I dont think he will go.
I used to entertain the notion that when Winnowill was in human form she got pregnant with the Djun and that's where Angrif (and his sister) came from. It seemed farfeatched at the time, but with Shenshen now in human form, I am beginning to wonder.
Except for the whole there will never be a character that's half-elf, half-human.
Even if the elf-parent had shapechanged into a human he or she would still be an elf, just like Timmorn wasn't a full-wolf even though Timmain had changed into one, and she had changed on a much deeper level than merely cosmetic.
Besides; Angrif and Gifa were simply too old during Wild Hunt to be the children of Winnowill and having been born during the Shard's war; WH takes Places about 12 years after Shards, those two are at least a few years older than 12 when they appear.
Tam said: I would guess that if it does give her that advantage, that her body's "hum" would slow to a human's rate, and she may find being with Skywise unbearable.
Leanan said: Actually, the elves can adjust that 'hum'. Aroree was chosen to 'initiate' Little Patch because "She had taken pleasure with humans before." It was just that "in all her eagerness, she had forgotten - our bloodsong is pitched higher than they can bear."
I assume many of the Gliders took pleasure with humans, with enjoyable results for both.
But it says in the story she had done it before... if it didn't work out then, why would she try again, with Little Patch? "Hey, I went to bed with some humans back in Blue Mountain... they didn't like it... how about I try again with our beloved tribemate, Tyleet's son?"
Perhaps they can adjust the hum, but not enough? Winnowill may have been able to augment some humans in order to "play" with them.
Tam said: Perhaps they can adjust the hum, but not enough? Winnowill may have been able to augment some humans in order to "play" with them.
Leanan said: But it says in the story she had done it before... if it didn't work out then, why would she try again, with Little Patch? "Hey, I went to bed with some humans back in Blue Mountain... they didn't like it... how about I try again with our beloved tribemate, Tyleet's son?"
Didn't it say that Aroree was just 'always curious' about the humans? It said that she'd forgotten about how it wouldn't go well, as in knowing all along. But it never said that she'd actually tried it.
Thornbrake said: Because it specifically says she'd forgotten.
Leanan said: It sounds strange but considering all the other things they seem to have forgotten by the time of Final Quest, maybe you're right.
Leanan said: It sounds strange but considering all the other things they seem to have forgotten by the time of Final Quest, maybe you're right.
She probably could have done it right if she'd remembered the details- but she upset him instead.
The Djun couldn't sleep with Winnowill, it almost killed him....
I think it has something to do with being able to send. The times any elf even wanted to try and sleep with a human, it never worked. The exeption is maybe Mender, he slept with two? girls?
And Jink only could or wanted to sleep with a "tweak".
Maybe it's a healer thing that allowed him to do it. Winnie was a healer too at some point obviously but she was like, Screw this. I'm not going to pitch my bloodsong lower. Pffft.
And Rayek tried too as well in Rogue's Curse, didn't he? Yeah, that didn't seem to go well at all. But he did have a thing kind of going with that fortune teller. What was her name again? I forget. Of course Winnie just took a dump on that. That part really upset me.
Leanan said: But it says in the story she had done it before...
I think the implication is that she used to experiment.
My guess would be that it has to do with telepathy. What's "bloodsong" anyway? I mean.... simply gyrating fast wouldn't be a problem- our bodies are designed to enjoy that... but giving someone a migraine while doing so certainly would. Remember when Winnowil tried to send to Leetah in Book 3, and Leetah was too "inept" to receive it? It was painful. Elves probably, instinctively, link minds while linking bodies... and if they don't remember to stop themselves from doing that, it probably hurts the other person who can't.
It makes sense. If I were telepathic- and I were having sex... I would definitely want to know what the other person was feeling. How awesome would that be? It's probably so natural for them to do that, they aren't even consciously aware that they are doing it.
Think of the other things they call a "song"... The "starsong" is the instinct to return to the stars... a subconscious, racial memory combined with the underlying, psychic tug of the Palace. The "wolfsong" is the instinct to behave like a wolf- combined with the constant, mental connection (like a low-level recognition) that the Wolfriders maintain with the their wolf-friends. So a "song" seems to be an instinct combo-ed with an underlying, mental bond.
I bet they can turn it off- but it's probably a chore to remember to do so... and probably takes a constant mental effort to restrain from letting their brains try to connect with the brain of their partners during sex.
That's my guess.
Sounds good to me, Lunakat. I've wondered about that too.
RedheadEmber said: No, it doesn't. It just says that she'd been curious. Doesn't say that she actually acted on that curiosity before.
I'm sorry, I remembered/imagined it all wrong. Thanks for the explanations!
Hmm... another subject entirely, in that picture Thornbrake posted, Aroree seems to be taller than Patch... might be he's not done growing yet... but if he is I suppose ShenShen is not such a short human after all!
Funny ... in the German translation Aroree "satisfied her curiosity" with one of the Humans of BM ... til now I thought it's fact she joined with at least one Human successfully.
So much about translations. XD
I think Little Patch was still a kid. He had just hit puberty and started having these unusual feelings...
Or maybe the nearby humans were as short as humans were on Earth during our middle ages- which was, frankly, pretty darn short.
Yeah... I'm pretty sure 'curious' meant she tried something. Let's put it this way- I was once (or twice) curious with another girl. What do you think that means?
I don't know, Lunakat. Why don't you tell us ;) ?
I've always regarded curiosity as , well, curiosity. I've never taken it as a verb, which is why this is confusing. There are things I've been fleetingly curious about which I never tried (like wearing a Catwoman suit while being locked inside a kitchen all day, making cassoulet) .... but maybe I should. That's how I took it.
Well... I think language changes according to context. It's technically an adjective. It wasn't used as a verb here. But it carries a certain implication. I think the word "curious" has sort of taken on a slang definition.
I wonder if ShenShen watches "Call the Midwife". Am I the only one who watches this BBC show? if she watches it she would know she is in trouble...
I was not aware of that show! But now I will watch it... and picture Shen Shen!
I love that show! XD yeah, ShenShen will find out not all human mommies are as easy to handle as Shuna!
Watch it, it's a nice piece of social history with endearing characters! It's on Netflix. But human child birth is messy, and involves screaming and enemas. and it goes wrong a lot. And she has no superpowers- I wonder how it will go. But then you have to respect Shenshen- she had what is called a calling.
I had a thought today: Shenshen isn't a vet, as has been sort-of suggested, but a xeno-obstitrician! :D
But there are no elf-human hybrids. And Timmain and Winnowil both birthed their own babies!
lunakat said: But there are no elf-human hybrids. And Timmain and Winnowil both birthed their own babies!
I might've said this before, but I'm glad Shenshen is pursuing what will make her happy. I just wish she didn't have to take such a drastic, potentially dangerous leap to do it.
manga said: I don't understand your point, Luna. What comment were you addressing?
MultiFacets said: I might've said this before, but I'm glad Shenshen is pursuing what will make her happy. I just wish she didn't have to take such a drastic, potentially dangerous leap to do it.
Well, a xeno-biologist would study alien life forms. So a xeno-obstitritican delivers alien babies! :D
This was on FB. A picture of ShenShen and Chot in the forevergreenforest when they plucked some flowers and he mentioned ShenShen always smelled nice..
I had the idea of them meeting again and Recognizing.... while ShenShen is in her humanform..lol.
The discussion was also if Chot would know it was her... ofcourse he would know later, but at the moment he would be chocked! Him Recognizing a human!!! (This is ofcourse, when they just bump into each other).
To add to the discussion the debate was if in Recognition they send... I think not. It is stated "When Eyes meet Eyes, Soul meets Soul."
For example, Leetah couldn't send when she Recognized and questioned herself what Tam meant, what that word was. She knew ofcourse it had been Recognition, but if sending was involved, she would have know instantly it was all that Cutter was and is.
Any way, that is my take on Recognition....
That moment from Forevergreen is so cute <3
I really hope they get to meet up again :)
Me too, but I am not sure they are on the same continent any more.... didn't they (Chot and Yethel?? Sorry forgot his name....) step on a boat?
Does it matter if they are on different continents? The palace can go anywhere :)
I would love to see Chot drawn by Wendy again
No it doesn't, but I was just wondering.
And I don't think ShenShen will fly of to another continent, just in case something would go wrong, I think she would stay close to where Leetah is or the Palace.
If Shenshen was in human form, and Chot did recognize her, he would see her soul. Just as Dewshine was able to see Tyldak beyond his shaped appearance...
*for a given value of free that means diaper-duty and late night (er late day?) wake-ups for your future but not mine. ;)
You were nearly on the mark, Eyeshigh; it's Jethel.
You know, Shenshen said she'd've found a way to have a child ages ago if that was her true desire... But how? Leetah reacted with shock when Tyleet told her she'd had a cub without a healer's aid.
manga said: Leetah reacted with shock when Tyleet told her she'd had a cub without a healer's aid.
Yeah, but where would Shenshen have found spare cubs to take?
Maybe she wouldn't have taken spare cubs, maybe she would have found a nice boy to go the Nightfall/Redlance forced Recognition route with.
Well, without Leetah or Mender that wasn't likely to happen. (And at this point, she's spent more years without Leetah than with.) Though I wonder if Mender could maybe have done something from Sorrow's End via the Little Palace.
Or with Krim. Go-Backs can have children out of Recognition and she treed with two Go-Backs....
Eyeshigh said: Or with Krim. Go-Backs can have children out of Recognition and she treed with two Go-Backs....
After little Cheipar died they tried together, the four of them.
But it would still be Krim who did the child-bearing part, Shenshen couldn't really help her with that.
That is what I mean. My guess is if Krim had a cub during the wait ShenShen would be it's mother just as well, eventhough she didn't gave birth to him/her.
@Lunakat, during the wait Leetah wasn't around, but if she had wanted a cub she had only to ask her sister when they still lived in Sorrow's End. ;)
Eyeshigh said: That is what I mean. My guess is if Krim had a cub during the wait ShenShen would be it's mother just as well, eventhough she didn't gave birth to him/her.
Honestly, I'm not sure any measure of herbal skill would have been enough under the circumstances. Unless Shenshen was having the preservers wrap up her herbs in wrapstuff, it was in the dead of one of the coldest winters the Wolfriders could remember. No fresh herbs and I don't know about her ability to dry and store them properly in a Holt.
I do wonder why they didn't put Cheipar in wrapstuff until the weather got better.
because Cutter was sharing in Leetah's feelings that it was a living death and abhorable. and i think he wanted to keep everyone else more firmly in the Way then he was anymore. and the Way meant they survive or die on their own.
not that i agree with it, i would have loved to see Cheipar grow up...which coincidentally is why i love Wingthing's fanfic on what would happen if they'd done just that, and wrapped Cheipar until Leetah came back...but dems the breaks.
Abhorrent? "Abhorable" brings up images of preservers and pugs and baby trolls, lol, ugly-cute.
I don't see why people are saying Cutter had to do with it, because that's nowhere in the text. It's especially ridiculous considering Cutter actually went into wrapstuff himself.
More likely it either never occurred to his parents, or it occurred to them and they decided against it, or he was very, very sick, most likely due to a birth defect of some kind(he's very small, he could be premature, and his lungs and other internal organs didn't develop) and they decided it would be better if he died naturally, instead of sleeping against a hoped for healer that might never return.
Parents have to make choices like this more often than you'd think. I lost my niece, never to be born, to a choice like this.
Eyeshigh said: @Lunakat, during the wait Leetah wasn't around, but if she had wanted a cub she had only to ask her sister when they still lived in Sorrow's End.
Kathleen2point0 said: Parents have to make choices like this more often than you'd think.
and Cutter is the chief, and what the chief says, goes. if he said no wrapstuff, he meant no wrapstuff. the only reason he went into it was because he realized he wouldn't live long enough to see Leetah come back, and had no choice at that point. it was wrapstuff or die. and we all can see how devoted he is to his lifemate...
also, small note, obviously Shenny DID have some kind of herbs, cause you can see a small bunch on the bed by her hand. dried or not though, i have no idea.
After Cheipar dies. Long after, judging by how starved he looks in comparison to the first panel.
But, okay, yeah, let's say Cutter did that. Let's say Cutter, the same guy who risked his life to save his rival, who made sure that the humans and Door escaped Blue Mountain's collapse, who greeted Tyleet with delight and adoration, who adopted Shuna, yeah, that guy, let's say he said "no wrap stuff". Let's say he stood over a dying baby, and said, "no wrap stuff, it's not the way!"
Because, you know, that sounds like him.
I don't think Cutter said that long after Cheipar's death. I think he's just generally starved. For many things, but food especially. Cheipar was "frail from the start," I'm sure the lack of food didn't help. In the panel above, a wolf is found dead from exposure and starvation...Cutter's starved...Cutter's thoughts and Petalwing's suggestion, I think, are about that particular winter, not solely about Cheipar's death and Cutter's possible objection to using wrapstuff to save the life of a child.
I think Cutter's objection to wrapstuff was more global...he didn't want to use it to get through the winter. And I doubt he would have objected if it could have saved Cheipar, but they may not have thought about it in that capacity if they'd given up hope that Leetah would ever return. I mean, look at how many notches are on that tree.
ehm, they could have put Cheipar into wrapstuff just to go through the harsh winter. Maybe he wouldn't have survived either way, but in a warm/mild climate with plenty of food (and maybe fresh herbs) the odds would have been much better. It's not necessary to wait for Leetah...
Know what? They didn't. They didn't think about, they didn't want to, maybe he died before they even realized he was sick. Who knows? But they didn't.
Elves have an unusually low infant mortality rate, thanks to healers. Not because they love their kids more, because they have magic. Generally at their technological level kids die. No vaccines, no hospitals. Magic healers do a lot to take the place of those things, but without a healer it's no surprise that the infant mortality creeps up a bit. Probably Cheipar's death is a narrative device to enforce that.
The odds would have been better with a mild climate and good food, of course. But maybe the elves knew he wouldn't have thrived anyway. The point being, I'm sure they did everything they could have possibly done to ensure his survival; perhaps putting him in wrapstuff and waiting for the harsh winter to end would have extended his life a little, but maybe they knew it wasn't enough...maybe it was just kinder to let him die instead of stay in wrapstuff, be unwrapped, and then die.
Don't forget - elves don't believe that there is an afterlife - they know their spirits will dwell in the Palace. Actually have a conscious life there. Even before Kahvi's revelations and bursting activity they knew.
It doesn't make it easy to lose a child so early, of course you want to see it grow up, run and laugh and thrive. But when the child is very sick, not strong enough to do all this, maybe suffer?
Would they choose to put the living spitit in hibernation for an unknown time ... maybe for what seems to them an eternity? Imagine elf parents and kin die, even the cocoon could get lost ... and then the infant would wake up among unfamiliar faces - or even all alone somewhere (cocoons CAN wear off) - and spend the little time it can survive in dispair and hunger and pain?
The elves are so aware of the (after)life of the spirits that setting the spirit free (allowing to fly free) is a much more natural choice than imprison it in unconciousness. Elves have human feeling - but they are not human and don't exist under the conditions and limitations of us Humans.
When Madcoil killed half the tribe, the death of their tribe members had a deep impact on the lives of the Wolfriders, they didn't treat it as a mere "they moved on to the next step"-incident. The Glider's were devastated over Lord Voll's death. When the Go Backs killed Dart's lover, he went into a rage. It meant more to him than just loosing his sex-partner. So elves clearly do not always treat death as a "finally flying free"-thing.
Dying in a warm summer is, I guess, perhaps a bit more comfortable than in the coldest winter ever, too.
Heck, I don't read to much into the Cheipar-episode, and that's probably the way it is meant ;)
Concerning Cheipar - two of his parents were Go-Backs. And it would seem to me that they share Kahvi's feelings about 'healers making people soft' and so on. I would assume that in the Go-Back tribe, those who were weak, ill or injured too badly to live, would die a natural death, and be mourned, as there was no healer to keep them alive. So it might not be Cutter and the Way that decided it against the wrapstuff, but Krim and Skot and their Go-Back mentality.
I bet, in the old days- in Bearclaw's reign and before- babies died all the time. I always had the impression (don't know where it came from) that Clearbrook's daughter could have died in infancy. It's probably just part of the Wolfrider way of life. They accept death.
I don't imagine Cheiper was starved to death. At that age, he would still have been nursing. It probably just got too cold and chill for him to handle. They said he was 'weak from the start'- maybe he had something wrong with him. Maybe he got sick. He could have caught the flu.
I honestly don't think it has to be that complicated. The kid got sick- they didn't wrapstuff him because they were doing the Wolfrider thing and it probably didn't occur to them- and he went the way of most sick babies who don't have adequate medical care. It's all very sad. It's all very much life.
I wonder if the humans even have midwives. That's a sort of specialized skill, but most indigenous cultures in that equivalent area on earth just have a bunch of grannies that take care of it. Shenshen might introduce skill specialization to them.
Oh, hey, I like that idea, Kathleen! Good thinking.
Well... Shenshen is gonna have a... slight problem that needs to be solved before she can go out and be midwife to the humans.
Look at what she's wearing in the last panel of issue #7.
Haha, not much!! Guess she forgot to ask Moonshade to make her a new robe xl!
Would she wear leathers? Or go with human made fabric to make the camouflage perfect?
Based on the general location, cloth makers are still further south. Simple leathers would probably make the best disguise.