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Kahvi and planned parenthood

Leanan

My apologies if a discussion on this subject already exists. Also, spoilers for Final Quest.

There's something I've been wondering ever since I read the 'Kahvi' comics. How come Kahvi was so certain she could just "borrow" Cutter for a while and be sure to get pregnant?

Is Kahvi somehow able to get pregnant simply by joining with a male and deciding she will have his child?

I know it sounds weird but these are elves, magical beings, and after her lenghtly stay in a magic pool, Kahvi could well be different from any other elf alive.

In Final Quest #5, Windkin says: "Before going off to seek her own end, Kahvi asked me to give her a child, who would possess a trace of my sire, Tyldak's, blood". And then she had Teir.

This again suggests Kahvi has some special control of her fertility.

And in OQ it seemed to me one of the reasons Kahvi took Rayek as a lovemate was so she could have his child. And she did, of course.

What do you guys think? Is Kahvi in control of her womb unlike any other elf female since the High Ones, or does she just think she is?

lunakat

This is an interesting idea- that I definitely hadn't considered. It says, somewhere in book 4, that the Go Backs had sort of turned off recognition- because of their high death rate- and just bred without it. Well, Kahvi is a Go Back. If figured she would get pregnant the way any Go Back would- which I figured was similar to how any human would get pregnant... but trying. She had sex numerous times with Rayek- presumably, eventually, she would have gotten pregnant by him. It could have been the same with Windkin. She probably didn't just sleep with him once. She probably slept with him until she finally got pregnant by him. As for Cutter- I just figured she was giving it a go. Maybe she knew what was the right time of her cycle. Who knows?

I wonder though... having considered this- do Go Backs get their periods? How do they breed without recognition? Does it work like does in humans? Or, like Leanan's theory suggests, do they have control over their reproductive systems?

manga

I don't know. Krim didn't know she was carrying Sust until Mender told her. Maybe it's some combination, where Go-Backs in general can breed without Recognition and Khavi in particular has some ability to ensure she gets a fawn with her chosen "buck." At the end of OQ, she says "And if 'Brownskin' cooperates, we'll all get what she want." So she was clearly planning a pregnancy already, if she hadn't been before. The question with Teir's conception is did she and Windkin spend some time together to ensure a "catch" or did they do it the once and hope it worked?

lunakat

She admired his butt. I imagine she would have tried a few times at least. Why not?
Seriously.. who wouldn't?

krwordgazer

Kahvi had relations with Cutter probably thousands of times during the 500+ years they were together after Leetah and the cubs were taken away and before Cutter went into wrapstuff. And yet Kahvi didn't get pregnant then. So I'm thinking she may in fact be able to conceive at will.

lunakat

I hate admitting it, because I don't like the idea of it.. but I agree that makes sense and seems the most likely explanation.

manga

Lunakat said: I imagine she would have tried a few times at least. Why not?
Seriously.. who wouldn't?

Well, for humans anyway, even doing it a few times doesn't do as much for the odds as doing it at the right time. Sooo, did they spend a few weeks, months or years at it or was it "Shake. Stir. Thank you, sir?"

lunakat

My friend's wife was upset with him because she wanted to have a baby and she thought that he had taken too long with his career- and that it would be hard for her to conceive because she was in her thirties. When she told him this- he told her 'I can get you pregnant on the first try.' He read up on it, took some vitamins, mapped her cycle- and had sex with her one time that month. Bam. They have a kid.

It can be done.

lunakat

Still... I like to think they spent "a few weeks, months or years at it." It sounds so much more fun than "Shake. Stir. Thank you, sir!"

Embala

manga said: or was it "Shake. Stir. Thank you, sir?"
That's the way I've understood it.

*shrug* They could have have tried "a few weeks, months or years at it." It was not explicitly objected. But now I wonder - wouldn't it have been mentioned at least once if Go-Back females have a cycle - specially after Krim lived with the Wolfriders for centuries? They mentioned the great stir it made each time with Shuna and the wolves.

RedheadEmber

The creation of Teir definitely is more special than the creation of Venka.

Kahvi and Rayek were together for three years before Venka was born, and Kahvi didn't even know that Rayek was the sire until after the birth.
Kahvi and Windkin, on the other hand, were together exactly once and... hey presto! Baby!

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: Kahvi and Windkin, on the other hand, were together exactly once and... hey presto! Baby!


We honestly don't know that.

Embala said: But now I wonder - wouldn't it have been mentioned at least once if Go-Back females have a cycle - specially after Krim lived with the Wolfriders for centuries?

Yes- if there were something obvious associated with it, like bleeding. But Krim didn't know she was pregnant- and most Go Backs didn't seem to know or care who the father was. So... that sort of implies there weren't many conscious and deliberate pregnancies- if any.

RedheadEmber said: Kahvi and Rayek were together for three years before Venka was born, and Kahvi didn't even know that Rayek was the sire until after the birth.

Case in point.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: Case in point.


Case in point what?

lunakat said: We honestly don't know that.


It's pretty much implied. After Tyldak died Kahvi asked Windkin to give her a child, he did his part and then they parted ways.

Embala

RedheadEmber said: Kahvi and Rayek were together for three years before Venka was born, and Kahvi didn't even know that Rayek was the sire until after the birth.
Not necessarily. I've read it always as a part of Kahvi's plan:
- conceive Rayek's child
- giving birth secretly (as far as Rayek is concerned)
- and then tell him that 1. the child is dead and 2. that it was not his
- to make him leave.

Only now I realize that it CAN be read the way that Kahvi honestly wasn't sure about the father. Of course you need no special "conceiving controll" to assure this part - the traditional way works for elves as well. She wanted RAYEK's fawn - she made sure (this or that way) that it was his. She wouldn't waste her time (2 years of pregnancy and 3? years of nursing) by playing around with other guys while she "tried".

travelbug

Didnt Wendy say (not to long ago) that having a baby when she wanted to was one of Kahvi's "superpowers"?

When Venka is born, Kahvi looks at her and says "Well...that answers that"
Could it be she was pretty sure it was Rayek's baby, but not entirely?

Embala

Or - it was much simpler.

Teir was "the disappointmant of a boy". So the first look at Venka revealed "the satisfaction of a daughter". Question answered.

Being able to conceive at her will may be her special power ... but probably Kahvi has no clue about the gender of the the child before birth.

Leetah knew (well, she's s "super"healer), Toorah knew, EyesHigh seemed to know as well. Has it to do with sending? Sending to the unborn child?

Kahvi never learnt to send properly "in flesh", or ... did she? I don't remember. More Questions than answers, hu? :-S

travelbug

I think Eyeshigh knew because of her frequent sendings to Skywise. He may have answered her.
I dont think Toorah could send at the time she was carrying Leetha, but Savah picked up on Leetha's name long before she was born. Rayek learned Leetha's name from her. Savah seem to know everything worth knowing.

Kahvi couldn't know Teir being a boy when she concieved him. She does send,so she may have sensed it at some point before he was born, but she couldn't do anything about it one way or another.

RedheadEmber

Embala said: Leetah knew (well, she's s "super"healer), Toorah knew, EyesHigh seemed to know as well. Has it to do with sending? Sending to the unborn child?


Knew what? That they were pregnant? Kinda hard not to, when Recognition is involved.

Embala

They knew the gender of their child before birth.

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: It's pretty much implied. After Tyldak died Kahvi asked Windkin to give her a child, he did his part and then they parted ways.


That doesn't mean they just did it once. It means they did it until they knew she was pregnant and then he took off.

Even we can do that. I knew a couple of lesbians who wanted to have a kid. One of them did it with a gay man- about once a month- until she finally tested positive. It took about three months- which I guess was three tries. And they didn't even like what they were doing. It sounds as if Kahvi found Windkin at least attractive- so why would she just have a one time, maybe if, thing? Considering the amount of time that passed between then and now in the story- and their amazingly long life spans- what's a few months?

travelbug said: I think Eyeshigh knew because of her frequent sendings to Skywise. He may have answered her.

Yes. Elves are pregnant for two years- so by the time the baby is born- it's probably fairly conscious. We saw Eyes High sending to her child days and moments before it was born. So, Skywise was about what we could consider maybe a year old at that point. He was probably sending back on some basic, rudimentary level.

Embala said: Not necessarily. I've read it always as a part of Kahvi's plan:
- conceive Rayek's child
- giving birth secretly (as far as Rayek is concerned)
- and then tell him that 1. the child is dead and 2. that it was not his
- to make him leave.

If that was her plan, why would she not drive him out before it became clear she was pregnant? I think she did that based on his behavior during her pregnancy.

travelbug said: When Venka is born, Kahvi looks at her and says "Well...that answers that"
Could it be she was pretty sure it was Rayek's baby, but not entirely?

I think there was a chance it could have been Cutter's.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: I think there was a chance it could have been Cutter's.


Or Vok's or... someone else's.

manga

lunakat said: I think there was a chance it could have been Cutter's.


Not Cutter's at any rate. Three years later puts her encounter with him one year too late.

My explanation has always been that she "stuck with" him until she was reasonably certain and then started sharing with other Go-Backs deliberately to sew doubt about the paternity.

And Rayek's comment about "Not even Timmain can open your soul" is probably really Timmain not even bothering, out of respect for Kahvi's wishes, and Rayek putting the wrong interpretation on "I cannot."

krwordgazer

Yeah, I kind of thought Kahvi might have been lying to Rayek about not knowing whether the child was his. She obviously had no trouble lying to him. "That answers that!" might have been a reference to Venka's obviously looking like Rayek. There was no way she could be anyone else's-- whereas if she'd looked like Kahvi, Kahvi could have told Rayek the child just wasn't his, rather than that the child was dead.

lunakat

It makes it such a boring story to have all this deus ex machina happening. I really hope she was messing around with other GoBacks- that she took a few tries with Windkin to be sure it took- and that she was just gambling on the idea that Cutter could get her preggers. It's so dull to have everything be magically controlled.

lunakat

I also don't think she's ever been that calculating. Kahvi was more of a 'rolls with the punches- then punches you back' type than a scheming manipulative type. Urdah was right- there was no way she could have hid that kid forever- so for her to have planned to do that makes no sense. I think she reacted to his behavior during her pregnancy and made that choice then. I think that is in keeping with her character. The other is in keeping with Winnowil's character.

krwordgazer

lunakat said: I also don't think she's ever been that calculating. Kahvi was more of a 'rolls with the punches- then punches you back' type than a scheming manipulative type. Urdah was right- there was no way she could have hid that kid forever- so for her to have planned to do that makes no sense. I think she reacted to his behavior during her pregnancy and made that choice then. I think that is in keeping with her character. The other is in keeping with Winnowil's character.


Well, that is a point, Luna, and maybe you're right. The problem is that when a character lies, the reader often can tell no more than the other characters, when she's lying and when she's not.

If this is true, though, then it makes Kahvi's behavior towards Cutter when he was in wrapstuff much worse. I thought she was planning to cut him out of wrapstuff, convince him to have sex with her, then let him go right back into wrapstuff. If she couldn't conceive at will, then she might have had to keep him more or less imprisoned for years, maybe decades. And it does raise the question of why she never got pregnant during the 500+ years she was sleeping with him before he went into wrapstuff.

krwordgazer

Here's a thought-- what if it's the reverse? What if Kahvi can't conceive at will, but she has figured out how to keep herself from conceiving? Then the reason she didn't get pregnant while living on Thorny Mountain was that she didn't want to-- but once she decided to let herself, pregnancy could come fairly quickly.

Embala

Doesn't change anything for me, lunakat. Just proves that I was too hasty to work out my comment properly.

- conceive Rayek's child ... THIS was definitely her plan.
- getting p*** off by his behaviour
- decided to raise the child her way - and exclude Rayek

- giving birth secretly (as far as Rayek is concerned)
- and then tell him that 1. the child is dead and 2. that it was not his
- to make him leave. Or shoo him away otherwise if this will not be enough.

A rather simple plan. GET NEW BLOOD for the tribe. The rest is reaction to behavior and events. No need for much calculation or being a scheming manipulative type.

lunakat

Embala said: Doesn't change anything for me, lunakat. Just proves that I was too hasty to work out my comment properly.

- conceive Rayek's child ... THIS was definitely her plan.
- getting p*** off by his behaviour
- decided to raise the child her way - and exclude Rayek

- giving birth secretly (as far as Rayek is concerned)
- and then tell him that 1. the child is dead and 2. that it was not his
- to make him leave. Or shoo him away otherwise if this will not be enough.

A rather simple plan. GET NEW BLOOD for the tribe. The rest is reaction to behabior and events. No need for much calculation or being a a scheming manipulative type.


That makes a lot more sense to me!

@Krwordgazer- either way is an interesting theory. Who knows?

Tam

I totally agree re: deus ex machina. Just can't quote on my phone. XD If she could guarantees conception, there would have been no question the kid was Rayek's, but even she wasn't sure until Venka was born.

manga

I don't think she can guarantee conception so much as significantly increase the odds.

manga

So here's a question, one which earlier I might have said "no" to but in the light of the recent comics am not quite as sure of:

If Venka had been a boy, would Khavi have given the "disappointing" child to Rayek? I can see the scene we all know playing out a few years later and Rayek taking Ekuar and little Ahnten with him when he leaves.

RedheadEmber

krwordgazer said: If she couldn't conceive at will, then she might have had to keep him more or less imprisoned for years, maybe decades. And it does raise the question of why she never got pregnant during the 500+ years she was sleeping with him before he went into wrapstuff.


Now that's just a horrible thought! Cutter... the sex slave! X(

And never mind Kahvi never getting pregnant with Cutter - it wasn't 500+ years, btw, she and Tyldak left the Wolfriders pretty early on during the Long Wait - how about the fact that she never got pregnant with Tyldak?

manga

Maybe she just didn't want to until it was too late? She managed it pretty quickly with Windkin it seems.

lunakat

manga said: I don't think she can guarantee conception so much as significantly increase the odds.

I like that. I could buy that.

krwordgazer

RedheadEmber said: Now that's just a horrible thought! Cutter... the sex slave! X(


Well, Cutter, sick and sad though he is at that point in the story, is still well capable of defending himself. And I just don't think Kahvi would have thought of such a thing, let alone done it.

krwordgazer

manga said: I don't think she can guarantee conception so much as significantly increase the odds


I agree; that makes sense!

Tam

That works much better for me, and still seems within the realm of "weird magical ability." Nightfall and Redlance had to get outside help to conceive, if Kahvi could guarantee better odds, it would still work with the story, but be better than "wham, bam, thank you, sir."

lunakat

The Go Backs don't need recognition. I doubt Kahvi recognized Vaya's dad. But they also don't seem to know exactly when they are pregnant, the way other elves do because recognition is the indicator. (Krim is an example. She had no idea she was pregnant until Mender told her.) If Kahvi is able to guarantee odds at all... it probably just has something to do with knowing when she's most fertile. Even human beings can do that.

Leanan

I'm loving all the speculation here!

I wonder, are there times when an elf is more fertile? We know from the Shuna situation that they do not menstruate.

Vaeri

this is going to sound extremely silly, but i kind of thought of a clownfish situation.

an egg comes out for a period of time, then goes back into the ovaries. and repeat. until eventually the elf is so old, the eggs just don't move anymore.

lunakat

Leanan said: I wonder, are there times when an elf is more fertile? We know from the Shuna situation that they do not menstruate.


For GoBacks there would have to be. For the rest, it would be triggered by recognition.

Vaeri said: this is going to sound extremely silly, but i kind of thought of a clownfish situation.

an egg comes out for a period of time, then goes back into the ovaries. and repeat. until eventually the elf is so old, the eggs just don't move anymore.


Cool! Is that what happens with clownfish?

Tam

lunakat said: For GoBacks there would have to be. For the rest, it would be triggered by recognition.


I dunno that this is necessarily true...but if it is, I would chalk it up to environmental factors, like recent losses or a change in amount of game, than some internal cycle like humans have.

Heather




lunakat said: For GoBacks there would have to be. For the rest, it would be triggered by recognition.


But the Go-Backs do not have a cycle. As @Leanan said, we know that from the Searcher and Sword story.

lunakat

Heather said: But the Go-Backs do not have a cycle. As @Leanan said, we know that from the Searcher and Sword story.


All we know is that they don't have periods.

krwordgazer

Here's a thought: what if what most often causes Go-Back women to ovulate is the anticipation of something life-threatening-- a battle, a war, a terrible winter?

lunakat

eh

Heather

krwordgazer said: Here's a thought: what if what most often causes Go-Back women to ovulate is the anticipation of something life-threatening-- a battle, a war, a terrible winter?

I could see that. That would make sense as well. Cycle just doesn't grok with me.

Vaeri

lunakat said:
Vaeri said: this is going to sound extremely silly, but i kind of thought of a clownfish situation.

an egg comes out for a period of time, then goes back into the ovaries. and repeat. until eventually the elf is so old, the eggs just don't move anymore.

Cool! Is that what happens with clownfish?


ahahaha....not the egg thing. i was thinking of how clownfish will come out, then back up into their anemone, and repeat. and i thought, "what if an elf's egg did that with the ovaries?" sorry, my brain is weird. XD

RedheadEmber

krwordgazer said: Here's a thought: what if what most often causes Go-Back women to ovulate is the anticipation of something life-threatening-- a battle, a war, a terrible winter?


Aaah... so as many women as possible would get pregnant before the bad event, so whoever made it out would give birth to strong healthy babies to years late, to replenish the population.

Have to admit that my first thought when reading your post was but what about Cheipar? He was born during a bad winter, and Krim herself said it was the wrong time to breed. However, then I realised that sure, giving birth during a bad winter would be kinda bad, but becoming pregnant wouldn't, especially not with two-year pregnancies.

Embala

RedheadEmber said: Aaah... so as many women as possible would get pregnant before the bad event, so whoever made it out would give birth to strong healthy babies to years late, to replenish the population.
And males, who might die in the battle would have a good chance to sire a fawn and contribute to the genetic pool.

manga

But doesn't it make more sense to then keep the females away from the dangers of the battle? You're not getting even close to replacement numbers if you're letting many of those pregnancies (not to mention the females themselves and the children they may have born later) become casualties.

Embala

The Go-Backs are not SO many. Keeping the females alone would would your forces cut in half. And Go-Back women are as fierce and capable fighters as males ... and probably similar strong.

Some will die ... but those who survive (a good part of them at least) would bear children to fill the gaps.

Embala

It's not the best parallel but it reminds me of the "breeding policies" of kanguroos.
They can have actually ยง offsprings in diffrent states of developement.
- a "toddler" which already leaves the breeding badg
- a "baby", which is still grown together with a teat in the breeding bag
- and an embryo (hibernating in a very early state) in the uterus.
Fast replacement if one of the offspings dies.

It's not so much about guarding the females but about as fast as possible replacement. That is ... in case this theory will hold.

lunakat

I don't think the Go Backs could afford to keep the gals away from battle. Besides, that would be a bad idea- the women were all good fighters. Why would you not bring good fighters into battle with you?

Here's a crazy thought- What if the GoBacks just cycle- not monthly, but at some regular interval- and every once in a while get pregnant?

krwordgazer

lunakat said: Here's a crazy thought- What if the GoBacks just cycle- not monthly, but at some regular interval- and every once in a while get pregnant?


In that case, wouldn't they menstruate? And yet none of the elves that Shuna encountered seemed to do so. Of course, there weren't any actual Go-Back women in Cutter's half the tribe while Shuna was there, were there?

lunakat

Maybe it's an oestrous cycle instead of a menstrual cycle.

Thornbrake

manga said: But doesn't it make more sense to then keep the females away from the dangers of the battle? You're not getting even close to replacement numbers if you're letting many of those pregnancies (not to mention the females themselves and the children they may have born later) become casualties.


There's a logic to this. That was Bearclaw's rule after Shale and Eyes High's deaths - a practice which the Wolfriders stuck to under Cutter, at least until the first Palace War. But I try convincing Kahvi. >:>

Embala

Thornbrake said: But I try convincing Kahvi
This. And each other Go-Back female.


And
- The Wolfriders had a clearly smaller number when this rule was made (about 20).
- There were significantly fewer females than males in the tribe (11 to 6 at EQ#1).
- They depended on slow reproduction by Recognition ... with only one Rainsong. ;)
Special protection for the females made much more sensein this situation.

RedheadEmber

krwordgazer said: Of course, there weren't any actual Go-Back women in Cutter's half the tribe while Shuna was there, were there?


No. But Krim did live with the wolfriders for several hundreds years and she never seemed to have any problems, though that could simply be because she wasn't bothered by it. >:D

lunakat

So earlier I said maybe it's an oestrous cycle.

That's different than a menstrual cycle. Primates have menstrual cycles. Most other mammals have oestrous cycles.

Those kinds of cycles may or may not involve bleeding. Dogs have them and bleed- but many other animals have them and don't bleed. Instead of sloughing it off (as happens with us each month), I think the body reabsorbs the tissue that preps it for pregnancy.

Maybe GoBacks just have infrequent oestrous cycles, and reabsorb their tissue. And if they don't have sex during that time, they don't get pregnant. GoBacks women, I guess, had sex before every battle- and battles all the time- so there were probably more hits than misses. But maybe Krim and Kahvi didn't get preggers because their timing was off with Cutter and Skot and Pike. Who knows? Maybe Krim did have a few babies- more than Cheiper- that didn't make it, and we just didn't see. Maybe Kahvi wasn't constantly having sex with Cutter. He didn't seem that into it anyway.

krwordgazer

Hmm. I would think that Wolfrider males, having wolf blood, would be able to tell if a Go-Back woman went into heat. But... that could be something "off-screen" that we readers just never saw.

lunakat

recognition is clearly some form of 'going into heat.' That seems to be how elves breed.

lunakat

Maybe the GoBacks just do it more subtly and regularly. Maybe it's not as intense- or they just have the internal cycle, without the compulsion to mate. Like- maybe the guy doesn't notice because it's happening in the the gal without any of the usual outer signals.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: Maybe it's not as intense- or they just have the internal cycle, without the compulsion to mate.


Or maybe they don't get the compulsion to mate because they're mating all. the. freaking. time! :-\"

Dene335

It could be Willowgreen was Kahvi's daughter and as a result Kahvi had some passive healer's ability like being able to conceive at will.

Vaeri

if Willowgreen is Kavhi's daughter, i want to know when Kahvi got ahold of the palace and used it to travel in time, and how she got it back to the frozen mountains....XD

RedheadEmber

Dene335 said: It could be Willowgreen was Kahvi's daughter and as a result Kahvi had some passive healer's ability like being able to conceive at will.


Pretty sure you mean Willowgreen was Kahvi's mother.

Dene335

Yes of course! I blame lack of sleep!!!!

Vaeri

=)) that would have made a MUCH MORE interesting scenario that what we were talking about!

but i have always enjoyed the concept of Kahvi having latent healing abilities. cause why not?!

Dio

This is an interesting aspect. Kahvi could very well be Willowgreen's daughter and have some latent ability inherited. I could buy that to be the reason for her "special skill" in planning to get pregnant.
I always assumed Two-Edge had some passive regenerating power from Winnowill, too. He survived being stabbed by Clearbrook and the Fall of Blue Mountain and was fit enough to rescue Aurek afterwards. To me this seemed a little bit magical influenced.

And Kahvi's low opinion of healers may be a subconcious memory of her "mother" being a seemingly weak character. At least that's how she came across to me in the Two-Spear and Kahvi mini-series. Of course Kahvi didn't know any of that until she met Aurek.

Embala

Dio said: Of course Kahvi didn't know any of that until she met Aurek.
She was not aware of it due to amnesia caused by (near) death and magical hibernation.

Memories of her intimitated mother and the way how her father treated her as weak could have remained subconciously. Two-Spear considered magical healing as weakening TRUE Wolfriders. Young Kahvi wanted to please her father and gain his approval. She has probably made his attitude her own.
Forgetting the facts about your past life does not necessarily means to change the attitueds you've developed. Especially when they fit so well in the society you woke up to and five with.


RedheadEmber

Dio said: Kahvi could very well be Willowgreen's daughter


I thought that bit was true, insofar as the 'Kahvi' miniseries are canon. It's who Kahvi's sire is that might still be unresolved.

lunakat

If Kahvi is her only child- then the father would be Greywolf.

Kathleen2point0

Was Grey Wolf the guy who became Sharf?

Embala

Greywolf was Two-Spear's "soulbrother", his best friend and tribe second. A throwback - comparably wolflike in look and even more in temper.

The elf who took the name Sharf was Icetooth, Skyfire's former lovemate (lifemate?) who followed his chief when the tribes parted.

Kathleen2point0

Oh right the Mercedes Lackey story. That woman can't write anything without it sounding like a pitch for a lifetime movie.

Davrille

I'd prefer to ignore the entire Kahvi miniseries.

Me, I go with what was used in the original EQ RPG by Chaosium, that some ancestor of the Go-Backs had realized Recognition wasn't enough for the elves to survive, and started the practice of supressing Recogntion until it was "no stronger than the pangs of desire".

I don't think Kahvi can conceive a child at will; I do think the Go-Backs had been breeding without it long enough that the physical changes in a mother-to-be's body were common knowledge among the tribe.