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Kahvi: What if it had been Cutter in that cocoon?

edited November -1 in Elfquest
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  • Just wondering-- if Kahvi had managed to locate Cutter's cocoon instead of mistakenly choosing Nightfall's, how would the story have changed?

    Or supposing it was a different elf? Treestump perhaps, or Zhantee? Surprised

    Conjectures, anyone?
  • What if it had been Tyleet? She would have tried to talk sense to Kahvi, a futile attempt...

    Redlance would have tried to talk sense at first too, then would have shaped some nearby tree to capture Kahvi - and continued trying to talk sense to her...

    About Cutter, I agree with what was said in another thread he would have tried to kill her - and he did have New Moon with him btw, Nightfall's blade was her own.
  • It should've been Redlance!

    That woud've been one of the coolest things I have ever seen!

    Sorry, I'll conjecture more when I've had a cup of tea.
  • Hmmm - what if it was Cutter?

    Well, he had that arrowhead jammed under his rib, he had waited for this true love until he couldn't wait no more and Kahvi was drunk. Not the ideal set of circumstances that have to come together to make a cub. I don't think Kahvi would have had any luck wooing him - he would have gone back to the troll caves to get wrapped up again and I'm sure the story wouldn't have changed too much. (Cutter and Nightfall are too much alike to change the EQ timeline if their places got swapped. They're both prone to make the same judgement calls.)

    But that's my take on it. I'm sure it can be easily re-written to have turned the timeline upsidedown.
  • Leanan, I looked back at the "Kahvi" book, and compared the sword in that scene with New Moon and with Nightfall's sword in "Dreamtime." Neither of the swords in "Dreamtime" look like the sword Nightfall is carrying in "Kavhi". But if that isn 't New Moon in "Kahvi," why does Kavhi stop in the middle of the fight with Nightfall, stare at Nightfall's sword, and go "Ohhh. . . " That makes no sense at all, then.

    Help, now I'm completely confused! Surprised
  • This scene mystifies me as well.

    I didn't think she was staring at the sword, specifically... alright, she had it at her throat, and it might have reminded her of New Moon considering it's curved etc., but the clue *I* picked up on wasn't the sword but the "Just get off... ...of..." that precedes her "ohhh..."-ing.

    I thought she was putting herself in Cutter's shoes there, with Kahvi coercing him into something. A bit silly, I guess. She wasn't planning to rape him, after all. But at the time that's exactly what I thought. Hm.
  • ...but, just to entertain the "what-if's" ...or, to play Devil's Advocate...what WOULD Cutter and Kahvi's cub have been like if he would have had a fling with her? I mean, I think any cub he would have had with her could have given Ember a run for her money! Granted, the birthrite (at least I feel) would have rightfully been Ember's, but still...what if? :?
  • Mine, I'm taking it, all mine.

    :Wanders away with story idea.:

    ALL MINE!!!!!!

    :twisted:
  • *backs off Kathleen*

    Maybe now we know who Jink is! Surprised
  • I think Jink was grown in a lab and escaped when the trollborg* smashed the place up. Sometimes when you wake her she'll still say Who do you want me to kill, Divine Shadow?

    *how's that for Nordic, eh?
  • Grin Norsebæbble!

    But I never understood why Kahvi thought she could talk Cutter into having a cub with her. Alright, so Cutter rolled in the furs with Redlance and Nightfall while Leetah was away, but come on! Kahvi? :?
  • I guess that's why I only abandoned my stupid she's-planning-to-force-him notion when I realised it was even more absurd than Cutter agreeing to a chiefmaking session.

    Maybe Kahvi just doesn't "get" it. From her point of view - why shouldn't he? Not even though but because his family is gone!

    Also, hadn't they spent some fur-time together before? Not sure they went all the way. Or if that means anything in EQ terms.
  • Yes, they "danced" together before the Palace War, but that situation was quite different from this one. I like Kahvi, but this... She's weird.
  • They joined in Kings of the Broken Wheel as well, more or less to ease their aches; Cutter from losing his family, Kahvi for "losing" her tribe, no longer being chief.

    As for Kahvi's "ohhh" moment when she's defeated by Nightfall, I've always imagined it has something to do with her losing to Two-Spear, she's having a little flashback or something.
  • Quote:
    Livie the Lurker

    They joined in Kings of the Broken Wheel as well, more or less to ease their aches; Cutter from losing his family, Kahvi for "losing" her tribe, no longer being chief.


    :o Did not know that. There's just so much happening in Kings of the Broken Wheel - I can't wait to read it! :D Continue discussing, please...
  • Quote:
    Aldar

    [quote:a29f8e8120="Livie the Lurker"]They joined in Kings of the Broken Wheel as well, more or less to ease their aches; Cutter from losing his family, Kahvi for "losing" her tribe, no longer being chief.


    :o Did not know that. There's just so much happening in Kings of the Broken Wheel - I can't wait to read it! :D Continue discussing, please...[/quote:a29f8e8120]

    Yes, Aldar, you really must read KotBW. There is a ton of momentous, World-changing storytelling in only nine issues. If you don't mind reading an English-language version in b&w I might be able to get copies to you.
  • I'm collecting the mangas, so they will be in black and white anyway. And I don't want to read it in any other language than English :) But I can't afford buying both the mangas and your copies, and I am gonna get them in manga versions, so...
  • I thought Kahvi's "oooh" comment was that she realised she was about to throw up! Heavy exercise after having a skin-full isn't the best idea in the world! :D
  • I agree, Kahvi's drunk and feeling sick, nothing more mystical.

    Which is more likely - that the artist forgets/doesn't know what Nightfall's sword looks like exactly, or that he forgets what New Moon looks like?
  • Well, turns out I've been going along with an extreme misconception all these years. :( I still have no idea what that "Ohhh" meant-- it's bad storytelling, plain and simple. If it meant "I'm drunk and going to be sick" then that should have been made clear. If it meant something else, that should have been made clear too. The only real difference between Nightfall's sword and New Moon is the shape of the hilt-- and frankly, I didn't notice that when reading-- I just saw Kahvi staring at the sword and saying, "Ohhh." I know the sheath is different, but Nightfall could have had New Moon in her own sheath. And when she was stealing the cocoon in the first place, Kahvi said, "That lump there must be New Moon." So naturally I thought it was! I still say the "Ohhh" would make a lot more sense if it was.

    OK, rant over. (I hate looking foolish, can anyone tell? :oops: )

    As far as Cutter and Kahvi sleeping together-- the scene seems to indicate that it happened several times. "Your body is with me to be sure, Wolf Chief, but you never are!" "I'm sorry, I can't give you more." So it's not completely out of the blue that Kahvi decides to make a child with Cutter-- she just selfishly fails to think about it from Cutter's point of view. But looking at other people's point of view has never been one of Kahvi's gifts anyway. She has one goal she's after-- the good of her people. Nothing else really matters to her. Ever.

    I do find it interesting that Kahvi can (apparently) conceive at will. None of the other elves are that confident they can just decide to have a child and then have one! And she thinks she has no magic! Surprised
  • Or we could all look like fools together...

    although I still feel like I'm right *g*
  • Hmm, yes, that child conceiving is a bit confusing. Skywise had a child with a Go-back without recognizing her (right?) so it would make sense Kahvi can do it too, they gave up on recognizing a long time, before they called themselves Go-Backs.

    I never actually read the comics about Kahvi (again Netherlands suck) but I think Kahvi lost the sense of reality there a bit. She knows how crazy Cutter is about his family, he would never have a cub with her willingly (not after going in wrapstuff because he can't life without his family) and I don't think rape is part of the Elfquest world.

    So all in all, I don't think anything would have happened if Kahvi actually took the right cocoon.
  • Kahvi's had a cub outside Recognition too - Venka. No, two at least, Vaya, probably others too...

    But there's quite a jump from 'it's possible to conceive outside Recognition, at least for Go-Backs' to 'it's possible to conceive whenever you wish'... I mean, humans can't do that either.
  • Well. I have always thought that the sword Nightfall had was New Moon. I just thought that the artist who drew that issue hadn't done his/her "home work" Considering that even the characters is difficult to recognize in some comics, it would not be so strange if the sword is drawn a bit wrong?
  • *sigh* just not giving up, are you? Grin
  • I don't think a regular EQ artist like Steve Blevins would draw that sword and think it's New Moon; New Moon is a very recognisable, simple and elegant design that looks like it's been "grown" by a metal-shaper; besides, it's one of the central artifacts of EQ thanks to the pommel key. Also, Nightfall wears her sheath, and wears it where she's always worn it. Her sword and sheath do look somewhat different in Kahvi #6, but I don't think they resemble New Moon. I believe they're more likely to be meant to be Nightfall's own equipment.
  • whew. Someone's on my side. Thanks nowth. That's what I would have said if I had any brains, but I don't, not at this time of the night...
  • Oh, I agree with you, Leanan! A close examination shows that the sword is not New Moon.

    But I'm very grateful to Cactus. It helps to know I'm not the only one who thought otherwise.
  • I just had a thought (yes, that's kind of rare, me with no brains and all, it's even later now...) - what if Kahvi thought it was New Moon, too? And the 'Ohh' comment was because of that? She was drunk, it's hard to concentrate on objects if you're seeing double...
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