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A Quote Question: "All forms of power..."

Snakesleek

Dunno if this is the right place for this, but I have a question about a particular quote, namely:

[quote:fe78e44b66]"All forms of power should be at the disposal of the powerful" - Winnowill.[/quote:fe78e44b66]

In which issue of the original series did that quote appear? I'm writing an exchange of quotes between two characters, and I really need the issue number for authenticity.

Thanks in advance, everyone!

manga

Lucky you, I opened up "SaBM" and it fell right to the page and the quote you're asking about! It's issue two of "SaBM."

Snakesleek

I had wondered if it might've been S@BM instead of the original series. Thanks for your lucky find!

manga

Glad to help. :)

lunakat

Yes, this is what Winnowil says to Tyldak, shortly before she uses Dewshine's own soul name against her. Tyldak, meanwhile, is begging her "do not do this."

It's an interesting quote- and rather chilling.

I think it illustrates exactly why Winnie is a villian.

Not to swtich topics, but---

I think this belief is the reason that Winnie was able to get under Rayek's skin- to influence him to do her dirty work. He shared this belief- that being powerful gave you the right to use that power. That's what allowed him to control the Gliders in SABM and to turn them against the Go Backs in "Cry from Beyond." It was the belief that gave him permission to steal the Palace, and Cutters family, into the future- regardless of the consequences.

The funny thing is-I don't think Rayek himself always subscribed to this attitude. In the course of the original quest, he gained a lot of power- but he also learned self restraint. It must have frustrated him greatly to keep himself in check when he knew he could force his will on others should he decide to.

When he met Winnie, in "Seige," she gave him exactly what he craved: permission. And a point of view that excused the moral implications of his actions.

How ironic that, at the end of this storyline- Leetah finally concludes that she cannot force her will on others. While Rayek has discovered that he "can."

manga

I think that for Rayek it wasn't so much about the "right" to use power but the responsibility. Clearly he took on too much responsibilty and on a couple of occasions took responsibility that wasn't his; however since he was always trying to help the elves (by his definitions, admittedly) I don't think he power-tripped the way Winnie did.

lunakat

I think he used the fact that he intended to "help" others as an excuse to power trip!

One of those "You don't get it, but I'm doing this for your own good" type of situations. Responsibility involves self-restraint, and seeing all sides. What he did was the opposite of responsible.

And while I don't think he power tripped on the same level as Winnie- I do think she was the catalyst, giving him the permission he needed to do what he wanted. Rayek did hold himself back, i think, before- because he knew others wouldn't support him if he simply did what he wanted. But then, suddenly, here's Winnie saying "their minds are too small" and "act on the greater good- that's all that matters," even "you're above everybody else, Lord!"

I have the sense, she voiced thoughts that were in the back of Rayek's mind all along- hence opening the door for him to ignore his own compunctions.

Hmmm. Anyone want to settle this?

Leanan

I wish wordgazer was here...

lunakat

I miss Wordgazer too, Leanan-

But by golly, we have to carry on without her! *smacks fist into palm!* We just have to!

Leanan

carry on, yes... settle this, no idea how...

manga

There's nothing to settle. I kinda agree with Leanan. Rayek had held himself back before. The KotBW storyline always made me weep and gnash my teeth because I just couldn't see why he had changed. Leanan has a point. Maybe his encounter with Winnowill did loosen some of his original compunctions.

Fourleafclover

Quote:
Leanan

I wish wordgazer was here...



Surprised I must have missed something? Where's Board Mom?

scarlettdoll

she's on vacation. She'll be back tho! :D


Luna-I think you've made a wonderful, insightful point! I hadn't thought about that but I think you're right. I think Winnowill's influence pushed Rayek alot! Plus, now he knew he wasn't alone in craving more and wishing to leave the World of Two Moons. All the other elves he knew were pretty content with life as it was. Winnowill shared his dream so he did have some support and she prompted him, telling him that it was for the greater good. Fascinating!

Leanan

Quote:
manga

There's nothing to settle. I kinda agree with Leanan.



You mean Luna. She's the one who said all that clever stuff...

krwordgazer

Wow, talk about being missed! :D

I'm very flattered, but you guys were doing fine without me!

However, I do have some comments to make (SPOILERS for Siege at Blue Mountain and Kings of the Broken Wheel):











Rayek is extremely complex, and this whole issue is complex as a result. I have recently decided (partly through the "Two Choices" fanfic I've been writing) that Rayek's real problem wasn't pride, arrogance, or even selfishness-- though they did play a part. The thing that really caused the trouble was what he believed about other elves.

From the first time we see him, Rayek makes it clear that he thinks some elves (namely, himself, and probably Sun-Toucher, Leetah and Savah) are better than other elves. And, to take it further, Sun Villagers are inherently superior to the savage Wolfriders.

In the desert, after losing his challenge, Rayek learns some humility: he learns he was a big fish in a small pond, that he is capable of being wrong and in fact has been wrong about some things, and that he still has much to learn. Then he meets Ekuar, and learns to subordinate his own desires for the greater good for all elves. But he still thinks some elves are superior to others-- witness the way he treats the Go-Backs, and Kahvi ("It shows.") But he still thinks all elves can be raised up-- and he wants to achieve that goal above all else. I don't really agree with Luna that he'd learned any self-restraint (if self-restraint is defined as holding back from what he really wants in light of what others want)-- simply that he'd learned a little humility and perspective.

But not enough. He meets Winnowill, and as Luna said, she reinforces his beliefs. He still disagrees with her: "I had meant to win the Gliders to my cause, not control them as you have done." But then she convinces him that the "rebirth" of elfkind (through becoming like the High Ones once again) is worth even controlling the Gliders for. He willingly goes into the trance to help subordinate them to Winnowill's will. Later, however, he shrinks back from controlling the Gliders' spirits within him, telling Treestump, "I want to help our kind, not dominate them!" And Treestump asks him if he knows the difference-- to which, interestingly enough, he does not reply.

He then drives the Go-Backs from their lodge. It seems as if he suddenly puts the two beliefs together-- that some elves are inferior, but that elves should not be dominated-- and determines that if the elves are inferior/unworthy, it is ok to force and dominate them.

As he goes along, his vision seems to gain more and more control of his thinking-- and Winnowill's temptation from under the sea certainly enforces his idea that he is a superior being who should impose on others what is best for them-- and he goes off on his mission to rescue the High Ones. He gradually moves to the point where even the elves he believes worthy-- Winnowill, Savah-- must be sacrificed to the vision.

Until Ekuar. Ekuar's leaving wakes him up with a jolt. If Ekuar is willing to be wiped out of existence with the unworthy ones, they must not be so unworthy after all. He had learned once that he could be wrong-- now he realizes that he's been wrong again. And he finally sees that what he has believed is not only wrong, but dangerous-- belief that one elf can be inherently better than another can lead to genocide! That's when he is "broken," and he loses his magic as a result. If he could be so very wrong about this, he doesn't deserve to be one of the powerful ones-- so he subconsciously shuts off his own magic.

But I don't think he ever deliberately set out to dominate and control, as Willowill did. I think he had a vision, that Winnie convinced him it was ok to force that vision on others for their own good-- and he believed that this was especially ok for those elves he deemed inferior. But unlike Winnowill, Rayek never set out to set himself up as lord of all elfkind, or to build himself up a controlling power. And it was this, I think, that redeemed him in the end. He was willing to listen to Ekuar above himself. Winnowill never set anyone above herself-- not even Voll.

Fourleafclover

Haha! Grin There she is!

krwordgazer

(bows deeply) Grin

lunakat

*claps heartily!* :D

Quote:
krwordgazer


But I don't think he ever deliberately set out to dominate and control, as Willowill did. I think he had a vision, that Winnie convinced him it was ok to force that vision on others for their own good-- and he believed that this was especially ok for those elves he deemed inferior. But unlike Winnowill, Rayek never set out to set himself up as lord of all elfkind, or to build himself up a controlling power. And it was this, I think, that redeemed him in the end. He was willing to listen to Ekuar above himself. Winnowill never set anyone above herself-- not even Voll.



Krwordgazer- I completely agree with everything you've said.

I think part of the difference between Rayek and Winnowil was in their motivations. She acted maliciously- he never did. Her intent was to hurt, to gain revenge. His intent was to enforce the "greater good." But the results of their actions were similar.

Rayek was much more naive than Winnowil. He believed in his vision- was willing to sacrifice everything to it. And part of his vision was based in bigotry- the idea that some elves were better than others. That certain lives were worth saving- while others could be tossed away. He was egotistical, idealistic, foolish and naive.

Winnowil was not idealistic; she was twisted by bitterness. Nor was she naive. She had witnessed the "ultimate jest" and appreciated the irony. I don't think that she saw herself "above" Voll- not in the same way that Rayek viewed himself as "above" the Go Backs for instance. Rather, I think she saw others as naive- and therefore easily mainipulated. Her anger drove her to lust for power- and that drove her to manipulate, control and dominate others. All those she could not dominate, she resented- those she could, she looked down on for their weakness.

krwordgazer

Thanks, Luna! I also agree with what you said.

After all, wouldn't it be true that the first time Rayek ever saw an elf dominating/controlling another elf would have been when he met Winnowill? It certainly isn't something Savah would have taught him about, and Rayek's own sense of superiority manifested itself in being a loner, not a controller.

Controlling, enslaving-- that's something trolls did, something he couldn't forgive them for doing to Ekuar. It was Winnowill who introduced the concept of overpowering another for his/her own good. Before that, it wouldn't have been something that necessarily even occurred to him.

What a team we make, right Lunakat? :D

lunakat

no doubt! :)

It's good to have you back!

Leanan

A good analysis, Wordgazer.