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Ember's Recognition (Spoilers-- but not what you think!)

manga

Oh her website Wingthing says:

[quote:196360c077] And let's not forget how [Leetah] brainwashed Ember to think of cubs born out of Recognition as equivalent to human "bastards." So now, even though she and Teir have finally worked things out, she doesn't want to have a cub outside of Recognition, even though half the tribe was born out of "true" Recognition (Teir, Pike, Sust, Tyleet, Krim and Yun.)
[/quote:196360c077]

I've been mulling this over for some time and I think I see where Ember was coming from. What she told Teir when he asked her why she wasn't willing when the Wolfrider healer was, was "It's not right... for me."

I don't think she has anything specifically against getting cubs outside of Recognition. She may have a romantic image of Recognition and want to wait for "the one." Or-- and this is my take on things-- she just doesn't want to start a family when Recognition could strike any time and play absolute havoc with her family. Just think what a mess it would have been if Leetah and Rayek had already started a family!

Kathleen

I'm with you. Not everyone can have a happy threemating. And think, an elf kid growing up asks who his dad is, or why he doesn't smell like his dad, that could be wierd.

krwordgazer

And isn't there some negative history Ember would be thinking about, too? I mean, Two-Spear, the oldest, was born out of Recognition, and Skyfire, his younger sister, was born later, of Recognition, to a different mother. And there was a lot of conflict over who had the right to be chief.

As chief, Ember has to think first of the succession.

MaxvonBek

And we need more super-powered chiefs like Cutter anyhow! Grin

Nowth

NoooooooooooOOOooooo!

Kitt

[size=24:b4e7d9a7b9]YEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!! :o[/size:b4e7d9a7b9]

nomad-human

Most of the elves have pre concieved notions about people and things. Just like the humans do. Kind of makes our little pointy ears more identifiable.

I mean there HAS to a stigma against children born outside of recognition! Pike puts himself down constantly because he was born outside of it, and even his own father gives a dig about Pike being born outside of recognition. I'm not saying it's the sort of harsh bigotry that exists in other areas, but the stigma is there.

I can deal with all the other weird ticks of Elfquest, because a lot of theconflicts mirror real life stuff for us humans. The "pure" bloods v. the "impure" bloods, that is stuff taken directly from stuff that happens here. And it's always dealt with in a very honest way. Humans v. elves is something else that we can find the parralells.

But the bias recognition against the people born outside of recognition has always made me a bit twitchy. Sort of like they're a type of second class citizen no matter what tribe they're from. Sad, children shouldn't have to grow up under that type of scruntiny and stigma. But that isn't a reason not to have those types of children.

The first step is always the hardest.

This is all very disjointed. This topic touches me in an almost spiritual sense. What type of child is "better" than another one? Which type of child has more status. It always makes me very sad.

I'm done now.

Kitt

You know, though, I never thought that Rain was jabbin' at Pike. I mean, Pike initiated the joke and Rain continued it, with nothing negative inflicted behind it. Likewise, I don't think that Leetah thinks any less of Pike because he was born outside of recognition. In fact, she even said that recognition could strike him because she genuinely felt that he thought less of himself because of his breeding. I mean, if that were the case, she wouldn't have much respect toward Skot, Krim and Venka, either. We know that Venka wasn't a child of recogntion and her powers are awesome! Likely, as Skot and Krim were Go-Backs, we can assume that they were born outside of recognition as well.

I think what she meant by her comment that Pool was a child of recognition was that the High Ones grant favor to the children whom they bring together through recognition and that they are usually blessed with special gifts of some sort. In other words, they are special. I don't think she was saying that children born outside of recognition were not special, but, as the moment pertained to one born of it, she made the comment that he would be special because of his special conception.

krwordgazer

(Whoops! Posted at the same time as Kitt. This is in response to Nomad's).

Which is why we humans many times try to turn our children into child prodigies, so that we can feel like our children are better than other people's children. Or we make them super-competitive in sports. Or we put them in beauty pageants. Or any number of other things. I feel your sadness, Nomad.

(Now, I'm not talking about letting your child participate in sports/pageants/whatever if that's what your child wants to do, for fun. It's when we do it for ourselves, so we can brag, that makes me sad.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, this aspect of elf life reflects humanity, too. We place more value on those who are more "gifted," too.

I do note that though Pike knows he's less gifted than the others, he never feels like he is not loved and valuable to the tribe. That's a plus for the Wolfriders.

Fourleafclover

Quote:
krwordgazer


As chief, Ember has to think first of the succession.



*Agrees with Board Mom* It's alittle different for Ember than it was for Nightfall.

Leanan

I agree with Nomad and also with Wordgazer...

I've said this before...

Recognition is like God to the elves. Recognition blesses them... Recognition can't be denied... Recognition works in mysterious ways... Recognition never errs...

If I had written it, Skyfire would be the eldest child, born to the beloved, weak Softfoot, and Two-Spear the offspring of Recognition, his father's pride, chief by right... and the rest of the story would be just as it was...

Of course, we have the elven version of 'Wayward Child'... we have Venka...

MaxvonBek

Quote:
Leanan


Of course, we have the elven version of 'Wayward Child'... we have Venka...


Dear Gods!! The poor Neverending...

Leanan

Hmm I wonder what made me write Wayward Child... like there was no story better suited for comparison in our culture... I'm contaminated by EQ, that's what it is...

Arthis

could someone explain me the reference(s) because I didn't understand a single word of the last 3 posts (about Venka)... :(

krwordgazer

I must confess, me neither, Leanan. If I have read your "Wayward Child" story, I don't remember it by that title. :oops:

innie

I know that children born out of recognition are somehow more gifted than other children. But I don't think it's fair that a younger child, born out of recognition, has more right to be chief than the oldest child, not born out of recognition. I think Two-spear and Skyfire had both the right to be chief. But Skyfire was a better choice, and I think that was a better reason to make her chief than the whole 'she's born outof recognition, she has more right to be chief' Every elf is considered equal, right? I understand that the elves born out of recognition are more gifted, but they don't have to make such a big deal of it.
Ofcourse recognition ensures that there will be strong elves born and so on. But I believe a child born out of love is just as important and meaningful.
I don't agree with those traditions that the oldest child must succeed it's father if there are more children in a family. I think the child who's most fitted for the job must succeed it's parents. And it doesn't matter if you're not the oldest. Like if Suntop would be older than Ember, Ember would still become chief. Suntop doesn't want/need to be chief.

So I don't think Ember should waith for recognition strikes to have children. It shouldn't matter if an elf is born out of recognition or not, the child who would be the best chief should succeed Ember. Ofcourse it's possible they don't get along and both want to be chief. But in that case it should be the tribes choice I guess...

ElfTanner

Acctually there is no rule that the eldest should be chief. It just seems that way because Cutter chose Ember over Suntop. He only did that because Ember has more wolf blood then Suntop and that would be kind of going against the way, to put an immortal in as chief.
Think about it. Timmorn chose Rahnee as the next chief and her sister Laststar was older, not to mention all the other children he had. He just felt Rahnee was the best choice. She was his favorite of his children.
And after Rahnee, there was no chosen succesor. She had a lot of children, and Pre-Pacer was the best choice to be the next chief. Now when it comes to Skyfire and Two-Spear, there are a few reasons most of the elves wanted Skyfire over her brother. The main reason is because HE was crazy, the second reason is because he wasn't born of recognition, which to the elves is a very seriouse thing.
Like to us humans, in many cultures if you are born to a mistress, or out of wedlock, you have no rights to the family "stuff", whereas the children born to the married couple get everything. A child born of recognition was ment to be, a child born outside of recognition wasn't. That's how the elves think. I am not saying that an elf child born outside of recognition wouldn't be loved just as much, just that in the Wolfriders case, it's a chain of comand, and a child born of recognition by deffinition is stronger and have more of a chance to be gifted (as in healer or rock shaper or Treeshaper). Therefor, It is not the oldest that is supposed to be chief, but the strongest and best suited for the job - hence Skyfire over Two-Spear.
Another example of the oldest not being chosen is of Tanner. He had two older brothers and I believe a sister, Yet he was chosen to be chief.
That is why challenges are taken so seriously in the Wolfrider tribe. To take the leadership away from the weak. Which hasn't really happened (off the top of my head) except for the case of Scouter taking it away from Ember. But, She (of the chief's Line) won it back. Oh, I'm sorry, it did happen once. Ice, or Wolfrider as he liked to be called, challenged Rahnee She-Wolf and won, but the tribe split, and his half ended up dead because of his arrogence. Leaving Rahnee (of the chief's Line) in charge again. And when it comes to Ember wanting to recognize first, maybe she just wants to keep to the way, and have her child of recognition go after her like all the rest of the chiefs did. You have to remember, Tier is decended from the Go-Backs. They could care less about recognition. She just wants to fallow the way.

joyleaf1

it is the children born of recognition that are often more gifted then not. there is but a few exceptions through eq history and one comes to mind venka. but it is the children born of reconigtion that number among the strongist and most gifted just ask savah in book one well counceling leetah on her recognition to cutter. :D

ElfTanner

I agree with the few exceptions part, but you have to think of who their parents were. Venka's father was Rayek, and at the time he concieved her he had all the power of the Gliders running through him, as well as the power he had already. So natrally his child was gifted.

joyleaf1

yep! very true on that. I just used venka because she came to mind I know she isnt the only one but there isnt manny. :D :D :D

cactus

[quote:46057788e3]Venka's father was Rayek, and at the time he concieved her he had all the power of the Gliders running through him[/quote:46057788e3]
But Rayek didn't even meet the gliders until after Venka was born. :D

Kitt

That's what I thought :?

Leanan

Quote:
krwordgazer

I must confess, me neither, Leanan. If I have read your "Wayward Child" story, I don't remember it by that title. :oops:



Oh, it wasn't mine!

'The dance of Wayward Child' is a performance the Neverending arranged for Jink and Kullyn Kenn... Wayward Child was born of a forbidden union but became a great warrior, and Kullyn commented the story seemed to condemn the union while admitting that great talent might be born of such a union...

Arthis

Thank you, I didn't remember that! (and still don't)

ElfTanner

My Bad :oops: . You were right Cactus. My time periods were all mixed up, it was right after she was born that he got the Gliders power. But my point still stands, he was a powerful elf in his own right when she was concieved. :)

MrsGrizzley

I *still* think that there was some forcing going on in Venka's conception (of Recogntion or something darned close). Kahvi went out of her way to have Rayek's child, and she seemed to presume that a child of his getting would have magical powers as well.

But Kahvi's a law unto herself after all.

Mrs. Grizzley

ReyesLord

I've come to believe that children born without Recognition are like children born from artificial means while those born of Recognition are like naturally born children. Neither is "better" than the other, but there are those that'll dislike the way one was born "outside of nature".

Plus those born of Recognition are thought of as being born with a purpose, that Recognition decided to strike the mother and father for a reason. Being born without Recognition would mean that the conception was mere happenstance.

MrsGrizzley

Of course, that belies the whole aspect of Venka's apparent "mission", to humble her father, but that happened after she was born, until then she was a means to strengthen the Go-Backs.

Mrs. Grizzley

ReyesLord

[quote:b2c4891d16]Of course, that belies the whole aspect of Venka's apparent "mission", to humble her father, but that happened after she was born, until then she was a means to strengthen the Go-Backs. [/quote:b2c4891d16]
Wasn't more of Khavi's idea that Venka's "mission" should be to take care of Rayek? She wasn't born with any sort of "Rayek humbling" powers, though certainly the power that she was born with could do that. Venka also took it upon herself to help out the Go-Backs; she wasn't born with any special powers specifically for that job.

What I meant was more along the lines of, say, Pool. He was born with the ability to "feel out" Winnowill's bad magic, which, in a place full of her creatures, was specific to the needs surrounding the tribe at his birth.

Leanan

I think Venka was born to fight Winnowill.

Stillwater

[quote:b412567992]Wasn't more of Khavi's idea that Venka's "mission" should be to take care of Rayek?[/quote:b412567992]
I thought that after Venka was born and Rayek destroyed the Go-Backs and stole the palace, Khavi wanted Venka to teach her father a lesson..."Teach him so he learns." I suppose teaching him a lesson shows caring (at least on Venka's part), but I think Khavi's motive was revenge or retaliation.

As far as Venka's powers go, I think having such powerful parents made her gifted in her own right, even without recognition.

Kathleen

I didn't think she wanted her to hurt him! She didn't seems angry by that point to me. Mayb still annoyed by his attitude, but not angry.

Leanan

Well, she pointed out to Cutter how Venka flicks Winnowill off like a fly - think how she'll deal with Rayek...

I think Kahvi had plenty of reasons to hate Rayek, but in the end, she did tell Venka simply to 'teach him. Teach him a lesson so he learns. That's all I ask.'

Maybe Kahvi had learned some leasons of her own from her wise and gentle daughter...

krwordgazer

Good points, Leanan. It does seem like Venka's powers are perfectly suited to deal with Winnowill. And yet, Venka was conceived before either of her parents had met Winnowill! So there was no perceived need, there. And, of course, Pool was conceived before Scouter and Tyleet had yet met any of Winnowill's creatures. Which does lead, as Nowth said, to the conclusion that these powers are not coming about in an evolutionary sense, as an adaptation to the environment, but rather are being engineered from outside (above?) somehow.

Could be the High Ones' spirits are actually influencing the particiular gifts a magic-using child is born with. Timmain did say "interested spirits" were attracted to those with gifts.

Stillwater

I don't think Khavi necessary meant to hurt Rayek---her revenge came through Venka when he was humbled and lost what he had worked for (undoing history). He even lost the ability to master the palace and make it fly! His "lesson" made him more responsible with his power, and helped him to realize that denying others their choices is wrong. I think Khavi would've been pleased.

dewshine_lover_1

I think that Being with the wolfriders and treeing with cutter made her temporarily soften. (kahvi)

Leanan

Kahvi? Soften? Never! The mountains will melt before her heart melts...

lunakat

Kahvi? Oh come on- she definately has a soft side. It doesn't reveal itself often, but...

she was gentle with Venka, and she cried for Vaya.

I think Kahvi just got tired of waiting for Rayek- tired of waiting for revenge. It had been too many years- and how long can you nurse anger?
When she told Venka to "teach him a lesson- teach him so he learns," that's really all she meant. She knew Rayek was arrogant and selfrighteous. She knew he made horrible. catastrophic errors in judegment. I think, at that point, all she could hope was that he would see himself- see what he'd done- and change.

Who better to accomplish that than his own daughter?

Regarding Venka's talents... I think they were the result of her being the daughter of two very powerful people- as was said. Maybe she focused her skills on deflecting Winnowil- by necessity? She just got really good at that one thing through practice?

Who knows what else she might be capable of. Heck she could have plenty of abilities ehe's never explored!
(*Marches with sign: Venka miniseries- now!* Wink)

I don't think she was born into a particular time for a particular reason. (Except that this is a comic book-- and the plot is clearly shaped by 'intelligent design'- Pini style!)

NightAngel

Yes, Kahvi has a heart.
She protected Venka when Rayek got mad.

Kahvi isn't that unsensitive or bad.
She is just so down to earth and have lack on so many things. -nothing news ofcourse-
That's why it looks like she doesn't care at all.
But it isn't.

That scene, wherein she cried for Vaya, that broke my heart.
Because that was the first time that the cold heart of her melted.

Nowth

Kahvi is most intriguing... there are many sides to her. Seems she needs to blow off some steam sometimes before her brain starts functioning, whether it's by fighting or surviving or dancing or "dancing."

An interesting blend of uncomplicated and mysterious, and maybe that's what had attracted Rayek to her (in addition to her being the strongest and most "special" of the Go-Backs).

Stubborn fool, drunken teenager, war chief, hero, rogue... and she does come up with surprising insights and observations, skewed as they may be by her philosophy. She's certainly not stupid, just sort of refusing to leave the safety of her rather straightforward ways.

Also, there's something cool about loud-mouthed girls. Heh.

NightAngel

Quote:
Nowth

Kahvi is most intriguing...
.
.
.
Also, there's something cool about loud-mouthed girls. Heh.


Yep.
That's one of the explanations of my love for her.

I admire the way she speaks out her heart.
Okay, not very assertive but I can live with that.
She's my heroine.

Nowth

You mean Kahvi is not assertive?

NightAngel

Not likely.
Haha..being assertive isn't like exploding, or say stuff TOO sharp.
Is it?

edit:
Maybe I should ask her to join me on an assertive-course:D

Nowth

I don't know exactly.

Assertive is ...uh.

The opposite of being a pushover?

To say what you mean, to state your demands if you have them, to "know your rights", to get what you want...?

NightAngel

Yes but not on an agressive way.

Kahvi is too agressive.
That's not assertive.

Kathleen

Assertive is being forthright without being aggressive.

For example:

"Is there anyone else in the house who would be interested in our survey?"

Nowth

Kahvi looks quite assertive to me, just not always in a good way... I mean, being aggressive doesn't exclude being assertive. Rather like being hot doesn't exclude being warm...

Then again, it's my second language so I shall defer to Kathleen's nativity.

NightAngel

Nah..so you don't believe me because I'm not speaking english?

I know what assertive means.

Evil Grin

Nowth

Er, what? Just saying why I think Kahvi still fits the "assertive" description.

NightAngel

But what do you mean with this then:

"Then again, it's my second language so I shall defer to Kathleen's nativity"

Just wondering..

Nowth

Okay, I understand what rubbed you the wrong way.

It means two things: I'm not, uh, assertive enough to continue arguing about things I'm not an expert in, and gave up at that point. And: I do suppose that Kathleen would be more familiar with the semantic nuances of English words than either of us.

After looking it up, though, I think you're right (both of you, I mean). My initial impression was that you were arguing from an "assertiveness course" kinda point of view, which would naturally try to teach "good" assertiveness (i.e. not blowing up, not being pointlessly aggressive). I, however, thought Kahvi was indeed assertive, and that "acting wisely" had little to do with it. Meaning: she may blow her top every now and then, but that doesn't mean she's not assertive. Just that she's not always assertive in a "wise" way.

And I'm sorry, I didn't want to make you feel not taken seriously.

NightAngel

But Nowth, I don't get you...you mean that assertive, the word, doesn't exist in your language?

It does exists in Dutch.
So, why shouldn't I know what it means? :roll:


*hugs*=)

Nowth

"Assertief"?

No, it doesn't exist in German.

But even words that exist in different languages can mean subtly different things... or not so subtly ("actually"/"aktuell" or "eventually"/"eventuell" have completely different meanings, for example)

And, eh, I guess I'm just a little toooo used to being right when it comes to words. :roll:

*hugs*
we cool now?

NightAngel

Assertief, assertiviteit yes: )

Ofcourse we're cool!
Don't you ever doubt that!
*snuggles Nowthy-kitty*

Nowth

*meowsmilehuggles* whew! ;)

NightAngel

cactus

I liked Kahvi up until the end of KoBW. After that she just seems... lost :roll: ? At least I think she has changed too much for me to recognise the person we met in OQ. I guess it has much to do with what has happened to the Go Backs. In the Kahvi mini series she just seems plain stupid IMHO...

Leanan

For the record - I wasn't saying Kahvi's heartless. I love her. Her heart is treacherous and greedy but she does all for her people, not for herself... Kahvi is, in my opinion, very much like Bearclaw. But since she's a female, somehow I love her for all the characteristics that annoy me in him... :?

LivietheLurker

Actually, that's a good description, Leanan. Kahvi definitely acts before thinking things through. Perhaps it's better to say that she has difficulties seeing the consequences of her actions, and therefore not seeing that they might be a lot worse than the initial problem. Or what she thinks of as the problem.

Trollbabe

If Ember has a cub, and the tribe finds a new holt, I imagine Tier doing a lot of the cub-raising. Ember seems pretty independent, as did her mother when she recognized Cutter.

RedheadEmber

ElfTanner said: I agree with the few exceptions part, but you have to think of who their parents were. Venka's father was Rayek, and at the time he concieved her he had all the power of the Gliders running through him, as well as the power he had already. So natrally his child was gifted.


No he hadn't. Venka was concieved and born before Rayek went to Blue Mountain.
(And yes, I'm quoting an almost 10-year-old post!)



Trollbabe said: If Ember has a cub, and the tribe finds a new holt, I imagine Tier doing a lot of the cub-raising. Ember seems pretty independent, as did her mother when she recognized Cutter.


First of all; this is the only time I've seen the sentence "if X has a cub." about an already recognized person.
Secondly; I think you're right, in the sense that Ember and Teir will raise their cub together, just like Cutter and Leetah did.

travelbug

Well, Ember and Teir are recognized for sure, but they haven't been able to actually make the cubling yet ;)
I think it will be an adorable cub <3

ChristinaRaibert

travelbug said: I think it will be an adorable cub <3


It's not too early to start guessing, is it?

So, what's your pick? Boy or girl? Red or dark hair (or something else altogether)? Magic user or no? :)

travelbug

A wolfblooded magic user with bluegreen eyes and curly dark hair?
I kind of imagine a boy, since Suntop got a girl already :)

(I going to find my color pencils later *inspired moment*)

travelbug

image

Here he is, he turned out older than I intended, but I think he's a cutie :)
I dont have a name for him.

RedheadEmber

Lovely drawing.

Embala

Absolutely a cutie! The eyes and the smile give him a soft and curious expression ... with a bit of Ember's spicey temper. I love that he has her locks.

Neautiful drawing, travelbug!

Delhya

Love It!!