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What is in the Soul names?

Skye_Dreamer

A lot discussion and theories to why some elf tribes have soul names others do not.



I am opening the topic here.

Leanan

I think Go-Backs might have soulnames because they're descended from Wolfriders. It'd be strange if Kahvi didn't have a soulname.

I think Gliders might have soulnames, but I'm not sure. Same for Wavedancers. Both use sending a lot.

Skye_Dreamer

Wavedancers I have a good chance of having soul names. Brill even she knew what it is when she realized she recognized Sunstreaker.

High Ones no.

Gliders Remember how Winnowill thought it was sign of control she never suspected Dewshine has a soulname

Khavi and Yun both could have a soul names simply because of the wolf blood.

Yun is more Wolfrider in my book than she is a Goback.

Leanan

Sunstreaker? His name is Sunstream. Roflmao

Winnowill knew Dewshine's soulname for what it was, and used it for control. If she hadn't known what it was, she couldn't have used it.

Skye_Dreamer

Reading to many Transformers comic books. LOL

Agreed.

Apogee

Elves with a strong need to keep themselves private have a soul name. Though they'd also need to be able to send - the Sun Villagers don't have soul NAMES, though they do recognize "eyes meet eyes".

And yes, Winnowill's use of Dewshine's name was no surprise, "all forms of power should be available to the powerful." The firstcomers and high ones names ARE their soul-names, they don't have need for hiding who they are, not until later one would expect.

Skye_Dreamer

Wavedancers will fall into this category as well.

Gliders names are their soul names as well.

stargazer

The Wavedancers certainly use the same kind of 'descriptive nicknames' that Wolfriders do, so I would imagine they have soul names. Possibly the Go-Backs too although their actual names actually sound like soul names anyway. I don't think the Gliders do - I think Winnowill just heard Tyldak use Dewshine's name and realised it was something she could use against her.

Stormcatcher

I remember this topic has already been discussed somewhere in the depths of this forum...
A soul name is a word-sound-concept used by the telepathic Wolfriders to guard their inner selves against telepathic intrusion (not necessarily hostile).
Something like a "true name", describing all that the particular individual is.
Only a largely telepathic tribe would have the need of soulnames, so Go-Backs and Sunfolk go definitely without them.

Kahvi and Yun might be the only exceptions.

sulken

just because an elf doesn't have an "world-of-one-moon" English name, it doesn't mean his/her name is his/her soul-name, look at Tyleet. The names could be untranslatable or too unusual (or inconvenient to spell). What if the names are verbs (or konjugations)?

Our hebrew or Germanic names were inconvinient as calling-names nowadays ("'god is great' wash your hands"). Most Chinese names are untranslatable: "body-hair vast-wet-area east" is not as easy to spell as Mao Zedong. If you know Chinese, Japanese and Korean names are pretty funny (one of my friends is named "Gold Smart-Wood").



With all that talk about soul-names in OQ (Nightfall so eagerly wanting to know Redlance's one*, Leetah's wondering what it is) I think we would know Tyldak's if he had one. There is a fan-thing about knowing an elf's soul-name, so Wendy would have drawn a scene of Brill and Sunstream staring in each other's eyes spelling the other's soul-name.



Even though, it doesn't make sense that only Wolfriders do have soul-names (or at all, why does a "oh-so-brotherly" group need soul-names?)







*and this issues before it's explained!

Leanan

OK, I got curious so I checked what the Wolfrider's Guide has to say about soulnames.

"A soulname is described as '...a word/sound/concept that expresses a wolfrider's personal individuality (and all that that means). Soul names grow out of the elves' increasingly frequent use of sending as a form of communication, protecting an elf's deepest, private self."

"When a group of elves, such as the Sun Folk or Go-Backs, are unaccustomed to sending, they lose their need for soul names, being able to keep their private selves to themselves."

There's more but it's only about wolfriders...

Embala

But it was written before the Wavedancers exist the way they are - so there remains a possibility Wink

Must admit though that Brill's soulname would have been revealed for sure in Discovery - if not in the recocnition scene than before/while joining - in case she has one.

Leanan

I think the fact that the Wolfrider's guide especially mentions WHY Go-Backs and Sun Folk don't have soulnames - no sending - suggests to me that other tribes who do have sending could well have soulnames. Or not. The Wolfrider's guide was written based on the comics existing at the time. It contains some info outside the comics but mainly it's just an organized summary of the content of the comics.

lunakat

i just figured that the regular names used by Sunfolk and Go Backs were their soul names. Wolfriders take on superficial "tribe" names to protect their inner selves-- in part because of culture. They are always described as being 'shy' and private. Sunfolk don't really send much- neither do Go Backs, and they might not care anyway. Gliders may not have had any sense of privacy, living as they did as a collective... unless they were Winnowil. Or maybe, being more advanced in some ways, they didn't need the crutch of a soul name to shield their "innermost" thoughts.

Of all the non-wolfrider tribes, I would guess that the Wavedancers would be most likely to have developed soul names. They are private in a similar way- and reserved. And they send all the time! It rather seems as if some Wavedancers use non-soul names to identify themselves (like Snakeskin) and others simply use their true names (like Brill, perhaps). Maybe this has to do with them being very close to high ones, but continuing to evolve. Maybe in a few more generations, they would all have had soul names and tribe names... just like the Wolfriders.

It's possible that the Wolfriders evolved and changed faster than the other elves due to a shorter lifespan and faster generational turn-over.

those are my thoughts.

Embala

Your idea of the Wavedancers just developing soulnames is interesting. I can see this happen. Though - I doubt that Brill is a good example for a true name / soulname:



off topic: Does anyone know whether Kroosh has an English meaning?

Apogee

Kroosh is more a sound effect than anything else, that I know of Smile

Embala

A reference to his temper, it seems. Thanks, Apogee Happy

lunakat

So.. do the Wavedancers use 'tribe names' then? And would that mean they have soul names? Do elves have to have soul names? I was under the impression that the elves were born with names or namesoundthingies that somehow described them, or were connected with the essence of them somehow..

but maybe not.

Maybe the 'soul name' is just a device that the Wolfriders evolved in order to protect their 'innermost selves'... maybe the elf part felt it needed protection from the wolf part? And maybe it's unique to Wolfriders. Maybe it's a key to their minds/inner selves that is specific to them?

And maybe elf names, for other elves, are just names...

Leanan

I've just borrowed 'ElfQuest - the first 20 years' from the library. In the introduction, Andreas Knigge summarizes the storyline of ElfQuest up to the time of publication and states that 'the only elves who have no soul names are the Sun Folk'.

This may not be official Pini info but I can't help thinking they would have checked the introduction before printing it...

spiritofthewater

Quote:


Maybe the 'soul name' is just a device that the Wolfriders evolved in order to protect their 'innermost selves'... maybe the elf part felt it needed protection from the wolf part? And maybe it's unique to Wolfriders. Maybe it's a key to their minds/inner selves that is specific to them?



And maybe elf names, for other elves, are just names...





That is what I am thinking too. In the ancient world, for instance among Jews ab 1000 BC, names usually described a persons inner quality. (Abram went to Abraham to describe his contact with Jehovah, "h" taken from "Jehovah", etc)



The elves are ancient. They behave like ancients and they are thinking like ancients and all their names describe either their personalities or their physical traits, just as the ancients. Their soul names are simply descriptions of their inner spiritual life, written in their own elvish language. They reveal their harmless aspects through their English names, and they reveal what they have to protect through their elf names.



Cuttter did not find a soul name in Leetah, since she doesn't have an animal nature like a wolf. The soul names seem to be connected to their wolf nature, and they probably describe the elves own animal essence or peculiarities. Other elves may find this essence disturbing since they may not be able to relate to it. The Wolfriders are also dependent of living as a group, and if everyone suddenly knew their peculiar animal own, and the full meaning of it, there could be conflicts and the group could then fall apart.



The list of all the soul names in EQ are probably a catalogue of terms describing the elves animal aspects, something others, or the non-animal, my find frightening, in other words it is dangerous for the elves to reveal it, since the non-animal from the "High Ones", or humans, may hate it. (The Gliders also hated the Wolfriders. Most humans hate the Wolfriders etc.)



They are only able to recognize each others soul name through the recognition of it. If I remember correctly Skywise and Cutter recognized each other when they where fighting and both where showing an equal amount of animal life. Their inner animal own could then be revealed without any conflict since they both took part in the same kind of life, (whatever that could be) on an equal level, and they saw each others animal own, and the moment they saw it they also named it, and those names were their soul names. (I really wonder what they mean). Since they were on an equal level they could also understand each others own, and they had no reason to hate it.



Leetah was first repelled by Cutter until she saw aspects of Cutters personality and named it "Tam". She could then fell in love with him, since she could not find anything else, or something worse. "Tam" could for instance mean some kind of protection instinct derided from the wolf, and Leetah found it attractive. It could also be something else. Cutter searched for a soul name in Leetah but did not find any, and naturally he did not worry about it. She only had a name, describing something not related to the wolf nature, but Leetah could also be a soul name.



We know what a "Sun-Toucher" mean, but not "Leetah". In the ancient world Sun is very often the symbol of love. We also know what Cutter mean. Leetah doesn't mean anything in English and it could then be seen as a soul name itself, since the meaning is hidden.



The point is: When the elves perform a certain act they may reveal their soul names, and if the other elf is able to recognize it, the hidden secret essence may become harmless through the knowledge of it. If you can name something, you can also see how it differ from everything else, how it relates to everything else, you can understand it, perhaps control it, and all this can drive anxiety away. Perhaps both elves partake in the same kind of inner life. Two elves can then get into close contact with each other without being afraid of their own being, or animal being. In recognition they simply know that their secrets is not anything to be afraid of.



The alternative is that they do not recognize it, and they will then not be able to see what they are not able to control, or relate to in a good way.



All the elves' soul names are also revealed during, or right after, some kind of action scenes, sometimes extreme ones.



A soul name is after all connected to the soul, and soul names will be meaningless if they didn't do any attempt to describe the soul. You would then only have a word without content, and that is not something elves would find important. Very often they prefer to send, instead of talking, and that also tell something about their fondness for mere words.

stargazer

"Leetah was first repelled by Cutter until she saw aspects of Cutters personality and named it "Tam". "

But Leetah didn't give a name to Cutter's soul...he was 'Tam' from birth. His parents knew it, and Skywise knew it too (in one of the childhood issues, he clearly calls Cutter 'Tam' long before their recognition.) Wolfrider soulnames appear to be only half a name - I'm sure there was something about this in the BOTC novels. Because they are not full elf they don't have a full elf name, which implies that other elves DO have a name for who they really are, they just don't keep it secret and so therefore, for them, it is not a 'soulname' because it doesn't give anyone power over them.

Embala

Quote:
... and Skywise knew it too (in one of the childhood issues, he clearly calls Cutter 'Tam' long before their recognition.)
Surprised Where?

SailorSilvanesti

Um...I thinks it's in the 'WolfRiders' comics, the ones with Bearclaw and Joyleaf.
I always wondered about that, as in...???? How on Abode did that happen?
On the other hand, the 'Wolfrider' stories aren't exactly in linear order...

Embala

Wolfrider! as I know is linear order ... hmmm - there are these DC Manga issues with mixed in Bedtime Stories ... *thinkthink*

stargazer

It was in the issue where Cutter & Skywise were being chased by a bear I think. I'll see if I can find it...

stargazer

Here we go...







It's BOTC 19. In Soul Names and Troll Games it says Cutter is about 15 or 16 when they recognise and is close in height to Skywise, but reading this BOTC issue it's obvious Cutter is a lot younger than that here and he's consistently shown as much smaller -.



Tonia

wow thats awesome! thanks for the share stargazer. I was still tryin to figure it out Tongue Thanks Smile

WolfMoonSky

I was still tryin to figure it out also Tongue thanks for the share stargazer, it's an awesome page!!

lunakat

major discrepancy in the timeline... hmm. What were those two rules again?

faeriegirl

Timeline here on the site says BoTC19 (the digger hunt) is 20years before EQ1... don't see the Recognition-story mentioned there, though...

faeriegirl

Ah!

Timeline: 20years before EQ1: Cutter born
20years before EQ1: digger hunt (the bear chase)
First page of Troll games, Soul names: "a youth of 14 seasons"

....Oops! Elfmom isn't infallible! Tongue

jeb

There are sooo many contradictions throughout EQ. That's why I find the whole "canon/not canon" classifications bewildering.

Embala

Thanks for digging it, Stargazer Smile Never was aware of this!



Quote:
Timeline: 20years before EQ1: Cutter born

20years before EQ1: digger hunt (the bear chase)

First page of Troll games, Soul names: "a youth of 14 seasons"



....Oops! Elfmom isn't infallible! Tongue


- Madcoil incident: Cutter becomes Chief at 17

- EQ1 is six years later

=> Cutter must have been born 23 years before EQ1



... and I wouldn't say Digger Hunt is made by Wendy Wink





1. There are NO inconsistencies.

2. If there are any inconsistencies go to 1. statement.


... ore something like that Wink

faeriegirl

2. if there are any inconsistencies, refer to Rule #1 Smile

and meh, true. Other artist fail! Smile

stargazer

Loads of inconsistencies...but we love 'em anyway!

"First page of Troll games, Soul names: "a youth of 14 seasons"
Yes, and then he spent a year in the troll tunnels, so 15 when they recognised...

Also, in the OQ Cutter says Skywise has 'always known' his soul name. How literally you want to interpret that is up to you.

faeriegirl

Yea, whoever said that they didn't know each other's soul names before the Recognition?? Wink

lunakat

Yeah... that could explain it. Like, maybe they exchanged names, but didn't really get the full impact of it till later. Nice save, fairiegirl! Thumbs_up

spiritofthewater

Quote:


"Leetah was first repelled by Cutter until she saw aspects of Cutters personality and named it "Tam". "



But Leetah didn't give a name to Cutter's soul...he was 'Tam' from birth. His parents knew it, and Skywise knew it too (in one of the childhood issues, he clearly calls Cutter 'Tam' long before their recognition.) Wolfrider soulnames appear to be only half a name - I'm sure there was something about this in the BOTC novels. Because they are not full elf they don't have a full elf name, which implies that other elves DO have a name for who they really are, they just don't keep it secret and so therefore, for them, it is not a 'soulname' because it doesn't give anyone power over them.







Yes, Cutter was "Tam" from birth, but you could still say that he was born with some distinct essence. I guess I have to say I'm not one of those who believe that an elf or a human is born as a white sheet of paper. I don't think the elves do either since they are all spiritualists. If anyone do, then what I have written will perhaps seem very strange.



I agree that Wolfrider soulnames is only half a name.



When I see Leetah as a soul name, it is because it is a soul name for the humans, not the elves.



I'm aware that you have to do something special to receive your full elf-name. (Redmark from Redlance for instance) but that doesn't exclude the soulnames from taking part in the same process. Redlance is indeed a description of who Redlance really is, but he also contains much more, and some of this will need protection. The elves are after all not 100% kind.



It could also be something from the High Ones which constitute the soul name, since it then easily will need protection from the elves wolf nature. When Strongbow hits Cutter in OQ#6, for something Strongbow sees as weakness/softness, there may also be more in Cutters conscience that needs protection from the same wolf nature. This could be the soul name.

spiritofthewater

Quote:


Here we go...







It's BOTC 19. In Soul Names and Troll Games it says Cutter is about 15 or 16 when they recognise and is close in height to Skywise, but reading this BOTC issue it's obvious Cutter is a lot younger than that here and he's consistently shown as much smaller -.







If another artist creates something that is not in accordance with Wendy Pini's work, I really think that WP should be trusted more than the other one.



I can't see any problems with inconsistencies because the non-Wendy stories is after all something else than Wendy Pini's work. I focus only on Wendy Pini's work, so what I write about soul names regard her work, and absolutely nothing else.



By doing this I can also enjoy Elfquest much more.



From elfquest.blogspot.com, Feb.05, 2005, Wendy gives this description:



The characters and their adventures live inside me, in a place where I can close the door, so I can keep all my senses open to whatever this Earth has to offer. Then, when I see or hear something that excites me, that inner door creeps open and Skywise or some other character will peek out and say, "Use that!" That's how it works. That's where the ideas come from.



That is the main reason for me to read Elfquest. WP has also told that it was the elves who found her. She has a direct relationship with them. She invite fans to send in questions to her characters. She even make interviews with them. The moment I know that one of the freelancers involved in Elfquest has the same kind of relationship as Wendy, I will immediately read it.



If they don't they can not create the same story as Wendy. They can create Elfquest, but human beings, artists, and what's inside them, is for me more important than mere words, including the word "Elfquest".



If anyone want to read Elfquest only as entertainment then this division will of course be a bit strange.

Startear

Actually, I love the Wolfrider series, and many of the other series done by other artists. I don't think I would have been in the series if it wasn't for this, because ultimatly, it was the first series I read. I have to admit that the story about the trasure hunt was one I never truly enjoyed. But many of the other stories, canon or not are beautiful

spiritofthewater

I have not anything against the non-Wendy/Richard EQ, but some kind of comic made by two different artists should not be seen as something equal, especially not if the comics is giving conflicting information.

Trollbabe

From T.S. Eliot's "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats"

The Naming of Cats

The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter,
It isn't just one of your holiday games;
You may think at first I'm as mad as a hatter
When I tell you, a cat must have THREE DIFFERENT NAMES.
First of all, there's the name that the family use daily,
Such as Peter, Augustus, Alonzo or James,
Such as Victor or Jonathan, George or Bill Bailey--
All of them sensible everyday names.
There are fancier names if you think they sound sweeter,
Some for the gentlemen, some for the dames:
Such as Plato, Admetus, Electra, Demeter--
But all of them sensible everyday names.
But I tell you, a cat needs a name that's particular,
A name that's peculiar, and more dignified,
Else how can he keep up his tail perpendicular,
Or spread out his whiskers, or cherish his pride?
Of names of this kind, I can give you a quorum,
Such as Munkustrap, Quaxo, or Coricopat,
Such as Bombalurina, or else Jellylorum-
Names that never belong to more than one cat.
But above and beyond there's still one name left over,
And that is the name that you never will guess;
The name that no human research can discover--
But THE CAT HIMSELF KNOWS, and will never confess.
When you notice a cat in profound meditation,
The reason, I tell you, is always the same:
His mind is engaged in a rapt contemplation
Of the thought, of the thought, of the thought of his name:
His ineffable effable
Effanineffable
Deep and inscrutable singular Name.

Embala

So true =^x^=

... and it sounds pretty a bit like Wolfrider names ;)

Trollbabe

I know the primary Elf characters, the Wolfriders, are part canine. I still think the Elves remind me more of cats than any other animal.