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Chiefs reign.

Vojira

Some 2 weeks ago I decided I wanted to make a list over which Wolfrider chief reigned when my characters were born.

Last week I spent a math class trying figure out who reigned for how long.

And I had to give up when I had to give at least 3 or 4 maybe chiefs nearly a 1000 years long reign. (Which would go against the whole Bearclaw McSuperawesome 'was the oldest living Wolfrider EVAR' idea.)

I want your opinion on how long YOU think they reigned. Please, don't link me to the Timeline section so I can draw my own conclusion.

I've already done it.

Just copy the text below and fill it out with your opinion.

PLEASE. This has driven me up a wall.



Timmain (leader):

Timmorn:

Rahnee:

Prey-Pacer:

Two-Spear:

Skyfire:

Free-Foot:

Tannner:

Goodtree:

Mantricker:

Bearclaw:

Embala

Actually I've tried to figure this out for myself some years ago ... and ended up with the same problem.

A line of ten chiefs + Timmain and a total span of 10000 years does not fit together. At least not when Bearclaw is considered to be the "oldest elf ever" with 1000 to 1200 years of lifetime. And LIFETIME does not mean CHIEFTIME!

I finally decided that there must be some shaded memories ... and to make up my own "timeline" - loosely connected to some hints I gathered together.

Years of chieftime:
500 Timmain (leader)
600 Timmorn
700 Rahnee
700 Prey-Pacer
500 Two-Spear
700 Skyfire
900 Free-Foot
2900 Tannner
700 Goodtree
800 Mantricker
1000 Bearclaw



That's my thoughts:

The High Ones story always seemed to be told in "fast motion" for me. It would hardly have happened within a few years or decades. On the other side Timmain had not too many time to bring "strong blood" to them. Depending on how many Firstcomers really were there in the beginning I figured a time of a few hundred to 1000 years.

Timmorn was a full hybrid and torn between Wolfsong and Starsong. Can't imagine that he would live rather long - though he started to do the "job" at very young age for sure.

Rahnee lived on with other elves ... not too much chief time for her.

Wild guess for Preypacer.

Two-Spear's reign was ended by a challenge - and therefor shortened.

Skyfire is shown to be almost the same age as her brother - no good start to reign especially long.

Freefoot's chieftime was remembered as a longer, peaceful period.

Tanner's chieftime was described as long and peaceful for sure - and he was described as very High One like. He was the only one who visibly aged - hair turning grey included. That's why I decided to make him very much older and grant him a overlong chieftime. (Yup, I know the Wolfrider's Guide says something about 800 years - this time I do not care about it! Had to fix this d*** chiefline somehow Tongue)

Wild guess for Goodtree.

Mantricker seemed to be an older elf when he was killed ... just my impression.

Bearclaw - I made his about "1000 years lifetime" the chieftime, supposing the Wolfriders would at least remember halfways right in his case. And to avoid messing up his legend at all.

Of course all this is open for discussion - or just an alterate suggestion. As long as we don't get a statement from Wendy or Richard on this there will be no "right" one.


on a sidenote:

There's one thing I've always wondered about ...
... wouldn't Icetooth have to be the oldest Wolfrider ever? Icetooth is from Two-Spear's time - depending on how long Kahvi was "sleeping" in the pond he must have lived 5000 - 7000 thousands years!!! Depending on her "resurrection" being some centuries or millennia before EQ1 Kahvi would join the club. (I don't count her time in hibernation.)

Watershaper

But that Icetooth lived so long was unknown to the Wolfriders.

Vojira

I've never liked the 'Bearclaw McSuperawesome was the oldest living Wolfrider ever'-notion. It just seemed to be way to make him awesome. (reason for the nickname). I don't hold much stock in group who are genetically coded to 'forget' stuff to better survive.
I seem to remember reading Valloa lived from before Timmorn became chief to Freefoot's time.
Icetooth must have ancient.
Longreach/longbranch: Looks like the same damn person if you ask me.

It only makes SENSE some of the other chiefs were older then Bearclaw.
I couldn't make the reigns add up if I had to stick to the fact Bearclaw is supposed to be the oldest ever.

jeb

I tried to work on this for a while, but decided there's just not enough data, and I don't think the Pini's really started with a definite timeline. So I think it's best to just finesse the dates to fit whatever your personal idea is.

Embala

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But that Icetooth lived so long was unknown to the Wolfriders.

Totally right ... I havn't intended to blame the Wolfriders to lie - or even remember wrong. It was just a sidenote in the general age speculation. Smile

Embala

I just had an idea how to fix this d*** chief reigns timeline. Oh ... there will still be need to "finesse the dates to fit whatever your personal idea is" - like jeb pointed out. But I might have a logical explanation for this whole "Bearclaw is the eldest elf and longest chief ever" issue.

And it will still be about "forgetfulness" on the Wolfriders' side - a very comprehensible forgetfulness, without blaming just the "Now of Wolf Thought". Give me some time to find the right words to get my idea through.

Embala

Fact: Wolfriders do not count time.

Due to the "Now of Wolf Thought" they have a rather bad concept of time. They remember seasons, bad and good ones - maybe back for some eights. They remember special events - the Allo attack, the year of the snakes, Madcoil. And they remember birth and death of "special" elves - at least who was born before/after someone else. But they do not have a clear defined memory HOW many time passed between these events.

Fact: Wolfriders count their chiefs.

The chiefs line is sort of a timeline for them. And the lifetime and chieftime of the chief is somewhat important for them - memorable. But once again - they have no clearly defined time span - just sort of comparism.

Fact: Wolfriders have Howls and Dreamberries to support their memory.

They do not just forget about everything due to "Now of Wolf Thought" - they remember what the storyteller is passing down on them - generation for generation. The storyteller is sending in the Howls - and I think in sending he gets through at least an imagination of the time passing. Not as an absolute fact ... but in comparism.


I imagine it this way:

In sending you can get an imagination of the person's age - his experiances, the many seasons that passed, the births and deaths he lived to see. Not as a number - but as a good comparism to your own lifespan.

And then Half-Ear, the old storyteller, starts - evoking an event long ago - sending impressions of the time passing:
Moonhowl, our former Howlkeeper, who died as an old elf when I had seen hardly three eights of eights, told me about a sabertooth hunt that occured when she was just a cubling. Chieftess Skyfire, who had seen many seasons already and outlived many of her agemates ...
You get an idea what I mean? The imagination of time passing depends to a good deal on the lifetime of the elf who can pass these memories - and those who listen. Halfear can pass down more or less his lifespan - and the lifespan of Moonhowl, who had passed it down on him in sending to give an impression of age and time.

As long as the Wolfriders had Immortals among them, they might have had a comparably clear knowledge how much time passed between two chiefs - at least some purebloods have outlived several of them.
When they died out there were only the comparably short living Wolfriders - old and young, long and short became more relative.

Let's say Tanner was extremely long living - for said reasons. He would have outlived all his agemates, maybe several generations of tribe member - even in comparably peaceful times there is reason enough for shortcut lives. He was old ... very old compared to his living tribemates. He can pass down an imagination of his long lifespan - but how clear can it be?
Think of yourself - when you are 30 ... can you really imagine how long 200 years are? And when an elf is 300 years ... would he be able to capture how long 2000 years are? Tanner was old ... older than any other elf could imagine - less had lived at least a noteworthy part of this timespan.

The years to come were harder - elves died even earlier in average, including the chiefs. The 2000+ years of Tanner, the oldest elf remembered so far, shrink in comparism. Being the oldest ... becomes about 1000 years (might make 800 years of chieftime).

And then Bearclaw is born ... he outlives agemates, lifemates and children, living for 1000 years and more. (Let's make Longreach and Longbranch relatives, okay?) In the memory of the living Wolfriders he IS the oldest living Wolfrider ever - simply for the reason that they can imagine his lifespan pretty well.
There are still elves who remember Howlings where a long deceased tribemate told the story how she witnessed Bearclaw's birth. While the memory of Tanner's real lifespan is foggy ... they knew he was "very old", but there is no comparism anymore.


Does this make any sense for you?

Watershaper

Interesting thought. And all that because the High Ones forgot how to write. or at least to hand this knowledge down to their children.

Embala

Even when they would have passed it to their descendants - I doubt that the Wolfriders would have bothered to write down their history ... less started to count years. Both seems to be so very out of nature for the wolfblooded elves.

lunakat

That's true Embala. And I like the way you explained the whole timeline of Wolfrider chiefs. I actually prefer keeping it vague. The whole story is simply handed down by sending and word of mouth either way, so it can't possibly be exact. It's more fun, i think, for at least some of it remain a mystery.

Vojira

Quote:


Fact: Wolfriders do not count time.



Due to the "Now of Wolf Thought" they have a rather bad concept of time. They remember seasons, bad and good ones - maybe back for some eights. They remember special events - the Allo attack, the year of the snakes, Madcoil. And they remember birth and death of "special" elves - at least who was born before/after someone else. But they do not have a clear defined memory HOW many time passed between these events.



Fact: Wolfriders count their chiefs.



The chiefs line is sort of a timeline for them. And the lifetime and chieftime of the chief is somewhat important for them - memorable. But once again - they have no clearly defined time span - just sort of comparism.



Fact: Wolfriders have Howls and Dreamberries to support their memory.



They do not just forget about everything due to "Now of Wolf Thought" - they remember what the storyteller is passing down on them - generation for generation. The storyteller is sending in the Howls - and I think in sending he gets through at least an imagination of the time passing. Not as an absolute fact ... but in comparism.





I imagine it this way:



In sending you can get an imagination of the person's age - his experiances, the many seasons that passed, the births and deaths he lived to see. Not as a number - but as a good comparism to your own lifespan.



And then Half-Ear, the old storyteller, starts - evoking an event long ago - sending impressions of the time passing:

Moonhowl, our former Howlkeeper, who died as an old elf when I had seen hardly three eights of eights, told me about a sabertooth hunt that occured when she was just a cubling. Chieftess Skyfire, who had seen many seasons already and outlived many of her agemates ...

You get an idea what I mean? The imagination of time passing depends to a good deal on the lifetime of the elf who can pass these memories - and those who listen. Halfear can pass down more or less his lifespan - and the lifespan of Moonhowl, who had passed it down on him in sending to give an impression of age and time.



As long as the Wolfriders had Immortals among them, they might have had a comparably clear knowledge how much time passed between two chiefs - at least some purebloods have outlived several of them.

When they died out there were only the comparably short living Wolfriders - old and young, long and short became more relative.



Let's say Tanner was extremely long living - for said reasons. He would have outlived all his agemates, maybe several generations of tribe member - even in comparably peaceful times there is reason enough for shortcut lives. He was old ... very old compared to his living tribemates. He can pass down an imagination of his long lifespan - but how clear can it be?

Think of yourself - when you are 30 ... can you really imagine how long 200 years are? And when an elf is 300 years ... would he be able to capture how long 2000 years are? Tanner was old ... older than any other elf could imagine - less had lived at least a noteworthy part of this timespan.



The years to come were harder - elves died even earlier in average, including the chiefs. The 2000+ years of Tanner, the oldest elf remembered so far, shrink in comparism. Being the oldest ... becomes about 1000 years (might make 800 years of chieftime).



And then Bearclaw is born ... he outlives agemates, lifemates and children, living for 1000 years and more. (Let's make Longreach and Longbranch relatives, okay?) In the memory of the living Wolfriders he IS the oldest living Wolfrider ever - simply for the reason that they can imagine his lifespan pretty well.

There are still elves who remember Howlings where a long deceased tribemate told the story how she witnessed Bearclaw's birth. While the memory of Tanner's real lifespan is foggy ... they knew he was "very old", but there is no comparism anymore.





Does this make any sense for you?



Clap Nice work Embala!

Blackbird

I haven't read everything about the wolfriders chiefs, so bare with me, but could Bearclaw for example been born already when Goodtree was chief?

Cutter will have grandchildren in his chief periode, so maybe it has happend before..just a thought Smile

Embala

Theoretically - yes. Having him born especially early, that is at the lifetime of his Grandmother, would mess up the timeline even more, though. With a lifetime of 1000/1200 years he can hardly be the (supposedly) oldest Wolfrider ever and the Chief with the longest chieftime when a good deal of his lifetime would be under the reign of two (!) forerunners.

jeb

In the novels Bearclaw is very young when Mantricker dies.

Quote:

A line of ten chiefs + Timmain and a total span of 10000 years does not fit together.

...

Tanner's chieftime was described as long and peaceful for sure - and he was described as very High One like. He was the only one who visibly aged - hair turning grey included. That's why I decided to make him very much older and grant him a overlong chieftime. (Yup, I know the Wolfrider's Guide says something about 800 years - this time I do not care about it! Had to fix this d*** chiefline somehow Tongue)


Yeah, having Tanner being one of the longest-running chiefs and having his time be 800 years doesn't make much sense when you consider 10000 years/11 leaders means an AVERAGE of 900 years per leader. Unless there were long chief-less periods that they don't talk about, or if the High Ones spent a REALLY long time sitting around doing nothing before Timmain took wolf form.

But, hey, they're immortal. Maybe it took them a good 5000 years to get their act together.

*Palace crashes*
1st 1000 years - Crap!
2nd 1000 years - "You feeling hungry?" "Yeah, I could go for something."
3rd 1000 years - "Damn, missed again! I am really getting hungry!"
4th 1000 years - Timmain - "Do I have to do everything myself?!"
5th 1000 years - "Yay! Food, warm skins, and ... children?"

Vojira

Quote:

But, hey, they're immortal. Maybe it took them a good 5000 years to get their act together.

I've never liked the idea of them doing nearly nothing and being stuck in a 5000 years long 'shock'. It's just too unlikely to me. All of them would have died within years if they were really that catatonic.

Quote:

*Palace crashes*
1st 1000 years - Crap!
2nd 1000 years - "You feeling hungry?" "Yeah, I could go for something."
3rd 1000 years - "Damn, missed again! I am really getting hungry!"
4th 1000 years - Timmain - "Do I have to do everything myself?!"
5th 1000 years - "Yay! Food, warm skins, and ... children?"

Roflmao ingenious!

lunakat

I just like leaving it vague... it's more fun that way. I just assume most of that history is lost because no one living really remembers (including Timmain... who had very little recall as a wolf.) It's a mystery. Leave it in the myst.

Vojira

Yes, you said something similar in post 11.

jeb

Quote:




I've never liked the idea of them doing nearly nothing and being stuck in a 5000 years long 'shock'. It's just too unlikely to me. All of them would have died within years if they were really that catatonic.







I understand what you're saying, but I would also think that High Ones have pretty long memories, and you have to have enough time pass for Timmain to actually forget she was a High One. I would give that a couple of thousand years at least.



And during that time I don't think they were just sitting around waiting for another ship to pick them up. In the novels Zarhan says he's the third generation born on the world of two moons, so they were learning how to provide for themselves, finding a place away from humans, and having kids.

lunakat

Actually, it seemed Timmain forgot pretty quickly. Didn't it? Her friends were all still alive, and it was within the lifetime of the pack leader of her wolves... unless the wolves went through several generations...

Yes, I agree- the High Ones were settling into the world during that time. That was why Timmain became a wolf- to help them manage that process better.

Vojira

Quote:




I understand what you're saying, but I would also think that High Ones have pretty long memories, and you have to have enough time pass for Timmain to actually forget she was a High One. I would give that a couple of thousand years at least.



True, but I've always thought her changing into a wolf might also have 'cut'/shut down most of her mind, speeding up her 'forgetting' what she was and her friends.

(Thinks of something and looks though OQ 13)

...Hmmm.O_o I kinda wonder if that wolf we start seeing on page 26 is the leader wolf she has Timmorn with.

Vojira

Quote:


In the novels Bearclaw is very young when Mantricker dies.



Any notion of how young?

Trollbabe

Meanwhile, the Trolls have harnessed nuclear power, begun broadcasting twenty channels on satellite, and invented toilet tissue...

Vojira

Aha.

sulken

Quote:




Any notion of how young?





In Wolfrider/BoTC he starts growing face-fur during the time he discovers the trolls (uhm, I think Treestump's beard is even fuller, then)



...



Icetooth's blood was removed, I think ("...Willowgreen's treachery..."), which would enable him to live longer. I guess Windkin is the oldest Wolfrider ever (yes, he's very much Wofrider...).

BTW, how come, that Kahvi is quite old for a tribe, which such a short lifespan. Even if she lived "just" some thousands of years, her tribemates certainly don't!

sulken

Quote:


Meanwhile, the Trolls have harnessed nuclear power, begun broadcasting twenty channels on satellite, and invented toilet tissue...







Asked, what she would take with her on a lonely island, a friend of mine answered "toilet paper"^_^

lunakat

I'd take a toothbrush. On an island, you can bathe.

Vojira

Quote:

I'd take a toothbrush. On an island, you can bathe.

Quote:

Asked, what she would take with her on a lonely island, a friend of mine answered "toilet paper"^_^

Please, make a thread somewhere else if you going start a 'I'd bring this or that to a island'-game/talk-thing.
It's pretty off topic, guys.

Vojira

Quote:




In Wolfrider/BoTC he starts growing face-fur during the time he discovers the trolls (uhm, I think Treestump's beard is even fuller, then)



Didn't that comic also depict Strongbow as being older then Bearclaw?

(or at least somebody that look totally like him...)

sulken

Quote:


Please, make a thread somewhere else if you going start a 'I'd bring this or that to a island'-game/talk-thing.

It's pretty off topic, guys.





I don't think this was going to get too far off topic, calm down.



....



(*looking up*)



Strongbow is running around, but he looks like he does in OQ. So according to the "500-years -> face-fur rule of thumb", he's depicted as being younger than Bearclaw (even though it would make him around 500 years in OQ).

Embala

Strongbow IS supposed to be about 500 years in EQ1. Though ... in Wolfrider! he is considered to be hardly more than a cubling while Bearclaw is a well settled Chief with full facefur already. The Phantom of the Berrybush is messing up the timeline just a bit ... or you decide that "Strongbow" is actually one of his ancestors.

Vojira

Just saying. Smile

He is? O_o
Hmm, his behavior might be throwing my memory off.

Vojira

Quote:


Strongbow IS supposed to be about 500 years in EQ1. Though ... in Wolfrider! he is considered to be hardly more than a cubling while Bearclaw is a well settled Chief with full facefur already. The Phantom of the Berrybush is messing up the timeline just a bit ... or you decide that "Strongbow" is actually one of his ancestors.



Ah, that explains it.

lunakat

Quote:






Please, make a thread somewhere else if you going start a 'I'd bring this or that to a island'-game/talk-thing.

It's pretty off topic, guys.





Don't bring your panties- they'd end up in a bunch!

lunakat

Quote:

Just saying. Smile

He is? O_o
Hmm, his behavior might be throwing my memory off.


Strongbow's behavior was different when he was young. At the start of Wolfrider, he is headstrong, with an impulsive streak. He follows Bearclaw around like a kid-brother, trying to impress him. I got the impression Bearclaw was a bit like a father figure to him. We see his mother, (Trueflight?), but not his father in these scene... just Bearclaw. Bearclaw is alternately fond of him, tolerating him and reprimanding him.

Remember the "why are you the only one to hunt bear?" incident?

Strongbow doesn't really seem to become sullen until after the death of his daughter. Before that, he seems to have more of a sense of humor. We see Bearclaw and Strongbow teasing each other, while Strongbow teaches Crescent how to shoot a bow. I had the impression, just from those few, brief scenes, that he was very proud of her. He seemed very content at that moment.

Vojira

Quote:




Don't bring your panties- they'd end up in a bunch!



Wow. Stunning.

Vojira

Always thought he was in his 20-30 at that time. *Throws hands in the air*
Wolfrider! kinda messes up the timeline.

Embala

Huh? ...

I share your impression - Strongbow seems to be at that age at the beginning of Wolfrider! Then there is a time lap of 400 years - the Humans come back, Crescent is murdered ... considering how the young apprentice aged into the old Shaman we know about 50-60 years passed until EQ 1.

Vojira

*Adds the damn '!' to Wolfrider!.*
Sounds right, Embala. =)

stargazer

Yes, the human shaman throws out the whole timeline. If it weren't for him, it could be claimed that Wolfrider! spanned a much longer time. But as Embala says - the whole thing apparently takes place within one human's lifetime. At the start of Wolfrider! Strongbow looks little more than a kid, Rain has no facefur, Trueflight is still alive etc. When you consider Cutter was about twenty three and Skywise about thirty when Fire and Flight happened, the whole thing up to Shale and Eyes High being killed must have happened in no more than a thirty year timespan, and Crescent was a teen when she died...Strongbow must have been really quite young when she was born. It just doesn't add up with what we know about Strongbow.



*scratches head*



Another instance of Rule number one I suppose...

Embala

Quote:
... the whole thing up to Shale and Eyes High being killed must have happened in no more than a thirty year timespan, and Crescent was a teen when she died...Strongbow must have been really quite young when she was born. It just doesn't add up with what we know about Strongbow.

*scratches head*

Another instance of Rule number one I suppose...

No, it's not ... guess I have some language problems. Wink

The "time lap" I mentioned actually took place within the story.
Here: http://www.elfquest.com/comic_viewer.php?fd=/gallery/OnlineComics/WR/_ElfQuest%20-%20Wolfrider!_page=1#_8#

There was the bear hunt with young Strongbow as prey ... then it is mentioned that 400 years had passed before the Humans came back. Strongbow was about 450 years old when Crescent was born.

TrollHammer

Quote:


Yeah, having Tanner being one of the longest-running chiefs and having his time be 800 years doesn't make much sense when you consider 10000 years/11 leaders means an AVERAGE of 900 years per leader. Unless there were long chief-less periods that they don't talk about, or if the High Ones spent a REALLY long time sitting around doing nothing before Timmain took wolf form.



But, hey, they're immortal. Maybe it took them a good 5000 years to get their act together.



*Palace crashes*

1st 1000 years - Crap!

2nd 1000 years - "You feeling hungry?" "Yeah, I could go for something."

3rd 1000 years - "Damn, missed again! I am really getting hungry!"

4th 1000 years - Timmain - "Do I have to do everything myself?!"

5th 1000 years - "Yay! Food, warm skins, and ... children?"





Sorry to dredge up an old post or two, but I just wanted to add I agree that while we all assume that its 10 (11) chiefs in a 10,000 year stretch, it seems that some time had to pass from the point the palace crashed to the point Timmorn was born. There were a few tales of the journey, as well as a large amount of ground between the Wolfrider's holt and the Palace (I'm assuming they didn't set out straight for the future Father Tree from the palace, they were probably chased at random by preditors and humans, wandered for easy to find foods like berries and were influenced by climate.)



There wouldn't even be a need to move so far south for some time, as the Trolls didn't even move to the forest until after they had already set up a kingdom (Guttlekraw's Kingdom) and left due to the cold. Though it could possibly be an exaduration, Picknose (or Greymung, I'll have to read again) mentions that they were in the forest before the wolfriders had settled there, which implies, totaled up, that a long period of time passed between the fall of the palace and the settling of the forest (unknown to me how much traveling was involved after the Wolfriders began thinking of their leaders as chiefs and their gathering as a tribe and settling for good in that forest).



Quote:


I've never liked the idea of them doing nearly nothing and being stuck in a 5000 years long 'shock'. It's just too unlikely to me. All of them would have died within years if they were really that catatonic.





They wouldn't necessarily be doing nearly nothing. I'm sure, if there was a long period of time involved between the crash and the initiation of the Wolfrider Tribe, they were on the run, fleeing at the slightest hint of human or large preditor, eating whatever could be picked from the trees and bushes, roots, all sorts of things that could be found without hunting or farming (nomadic life). In this state, not much of note might be remembered or considered worth mentioning later ("remember that time we ran from the humans?" "Which time?"). Point being, just as we don't know all the tales from our parents youth, the Wolfriders wouldn't necessarily be privy to everything the High Ones went through before.



Further, there's the whole idea that they could have spent long periods of time in wrapstuff. At some point in time the preservers left with the group that started Blue Mountain, but before that they were probably following the group of elven refugees and the elves could have spent centuries or millenia in stasis, not needing food, warmth, or anything else but protection. Then, when they weren't safe any longer, they would have been awakened and move on.



There's lots of forgotten (to the Wolfriders) artifacts that support this, including the cave that Two-Spear found, and at least two or three tribes that broke off long before the Wolfriders started calling themselves as such. Two-Spear himself did not remember the cave from memory, just that it 'felt' like their ancestors had been there (IIRC).



There could indeed have been a lot of history before the count of chiefs started. As to how much, I couldn't guess, but at least one or two thousand years or more, I feel.



Quote:


Yes, the human shaman throws out the whole timeline. If it weren't for him, it could be claimed that Wolfrider! spanned a much longer time. But as Embala says - the whole thing apparently takes place within one human's lifetime. At the start of Wolfrider! Strongbow looks little more than a kid, Rain has no facefur, Trueflight is still alive etc. When you consider Cutter was about twenty three and Skywise about thirty when Fire and Flight happened, the whole thing up to Shale and Eyes High being killed must have happened in no more than a thirty year timespan, and Crescent was a teen when she died...Strongbow must have been really quite young when she was born. It just doesn't add up with what we know about Strongbow.



*scratches head*



Another instance of Rule number one I suppose...





I'm going to have to read Wolfrider! now. I'm itching to figure out if one of my hunches is correct. I had the impression that there had been several shaman over the years, perhaps one after another since the Humans and Wolfriders first bumped into each other. The one that led them back to the forest during Mantricker's time was far too old to have been the mentor to the apprentice that burned the forest.

stargazer

Quote:




No, it's not ... guess I have some language problems. Wink



The "time lap" I mentioned actually took place within the story.

Here: http://www.elfquest.com/comic_viewer.php?fd=/gallery/OnlineComics/WR/_ElfQuest%20-%20Wolfrider!_page=1#_8#



There was the bear hunt with young Strongbow as prey ... then it is mentioned that 400 years had passed before the Humans came back. Strongbow was about 450 years old when Crescent was born.







Hahaha! Serves me right for relying on memory instead of going and looking it up before I start spouting nonsense!

Blackbird

Quote:




No, it's not ... guess I have some language problems. Wink



The "time lap" I mentioned actually took place within the story.

Here: http://www.elfquest.com/comic_viewer.php?fd=/gallery/OnlineComics/WR/_ElfQuest%20-%20Wolfrider!_page=1#_8#



There was the bear hunt with young Strongbow as prey ... then it is mentioned that 400 years had passed before the Humans came back. Strongbow was about 450 years old when Crescent was born.







That is what I thought to! He do seem quite young in the beginning, but the timeline feels short after the humans came back, all that happening in such short time, but...well.



Oh, yes..I think Strongbow would be a very different elf if Crescent didn't die.

jeb

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Any notion of how young?





Well, in the prose story Lessons in Passing, Mantricker is having trouble not thinking of Bearclaw as a cub anymore. He muses that Bearclaw is physically mature, but still not mentally mature, and he hopes to stay alive until Bearclaw is fully mature. Of course, he dies then. So I would imagine that Bearclaw was probably 20-30, kind of like Cutter when he became chief.



It also describes Mantricker as a young chief at this time, so I think his reign must have been really short, maybe in the 100-200 year range.

Trollbabe

I've seen at least two variations of maps of the World of Two Moons in the Wolfriders' time, so I am willing to accept that timelines aren't carved in stone either. The notion of recording dates is a fairly modern one. At least Wolfrider males don't get the cold shoulder when they forget anniversaries!



I get the impression that Strongbow lost his father early, but I'm not sure how.

Vojira

Quote:




Well, in the prose story Lessons in Passing, Mantricker is having trouble not thinking of Bearclaw as a cub anymore. He muses that Bearclaw is physically mature, but still not mentally mature, and he hopes to stay alive until Bearclaw is fully mature. Of course, he dies then. So I would imagine that Bearclaw was probably 20-30, kind of like Cutter when he became chief.

It also describes Mantricker as a young chief at this time, so I think his reign must have been really short, maybe in the 100-200 year range.



Hmm, I remember reading somewhere Mantricker's reign might have been the shortest. The idea was, if I remember right, brought on by a screw up that involved Demontricker.

Trollbabe

I guess they didn't have term limits.

Raenafel

Yeah, I thought about this chief line a lot while reading BOTC novels and Wolfrider!
It would have been much easier if we could safely assume that 10000/10 chiefs (Two Spear and Skyfire sharing same period)
But official timeline suggests differently...
For example Skyfire's time is set at 7000 years befor Fire and Flight, while her son, Freefoot ended up somewhere at 4000.


Isn't it a bit much? I believe BoTC novels give us about 900 years of his reign.