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Elfquest: Final quest 6 (spoiler)

Eyeshigh

@maatkare22, this is just a tip, because you don't like the pace.... wait and buy only the volumes? Although you must wait another 5 months before #1 is released.... :(
I know I can't wait that long, I am scouting internet, the forum and FB for clues and pictures even when I don't have my own copy yet!

No just kidding, but I hate to say it too, the pace of the story is slow, but we used to wait 4 months before the next issue came out, now 2 month for (half) an issue! So, in the end? Same thing :P B-)
Now we have time to speculate and adjust more what will happen. And we don't have to wait too long for new awesome writing, artwork and coloring from Richard, Wendy and Sonny!


Who knows, the best stories have a slow start, an incredible fast middle and an easing end. Specially when it is a concluding one.

maatkare22

Eyeshigh said: wait and buy only the volumes? Although you must wait another 5 months before #1 is released...

That's what I said in my first line (as well as referencing the wait in ye olden days--trust me, I remember. But on re-reading the full Grand Quest-purchased week it came out, misprinted page and all--it's hard not to contrast the amazing amount of story covered in each issue, even when said issue takes place in a very short amount of time, like the Blue Mountain arc, but truth is I will still buy new issues at my local shop because as we know we need to keep sales up so Dark Horse keeps making stuff, and I like giving my money to a local small business. I know you can't go home again, but just a few pages of Cutter's immediate family made me realize how desperately I've been missing them.

travelbug

Now when this particular part of Final Quest has been told, some old treads are tied up, the right elves are in the right places, the next issue is the one where the Final Quest really starts.
I think we will see much more of Cutter, Leetha and Skywise from now on :)
Cutter is the big hero in the story of elfquest, I think the spotlight will turn back on him soon :)

When #5 came out, I thought Ember would to search for a safer place for her tribe, and leave in the palace.
But after reading #6 I think it will be Cutter who goes with Skywise in the palace.

Eyeshigh

I agree with you @maatkare22! In the "good ol'days" more happend in one issue.

Still I do believe/hope the pace will go up, if not I don't mind as much as I used to.
I mean, we didn't have this forum at the time of OQ was published and many Holts to play in etc. In short enough to keep my mind occupied, lol.

RedheadEmber

So... Pike and Yun have switched over to Cutter's tribe, and Windkin, Dart and Freetouch have switched over to Ember's tribe. It's the Abodean version of "House Swap" - "Tribeswap".
Gotta love Pike's reason for switching: dreamberries! :D

Like the way Kahvi died, maybe her actual death wasn't that magnificent (even if Lehrigen seemed to think so) but the events leading to it.
Also really nice that she mentioned Yif as one of those who died in a better way than her, mostly because he's such a minor character.

Love the fact that Treestump is already referring to Teir as his great-grandson.

Strongbow's comment about Dart and Freetouch being unable to "keep their own hair out of their eyes." I think he was being literal! Have you seen those two's hair?

Embala

maatkare22 said: and I practically applauded at the sight of Khavi's mangled, bloody corpse being eaten by wolves

Havn't got my copy yet and I might be totally wrong ... but my first thought was:
Like Bearclaw! Like a Wolfrider ... >:>
... unless she was actually killed by those wolves - then I got it TOTALLY wrong ...

RedheadEmber

maatkare22 said: and I practically applauded at the sight of Khavi's mangled, bloody corpse being eaten by wolves


You know... for elves being mangled by wolves isn't a bad thing; she wanted it because it would feed the starving wolves.

Eyeshigh

If Yun is switching tribe....is Khorbasi too? Or is he staying with Ember? And the humanchildren? Can understand Ember doesn't want them around anymore, but on the other hand... this way she can teach and be taught!

Blackbird

I may very well be wrong, but I don't think Khorbasi was coming along.

I still don't get why Embers tribe wanted to stay there, in Dhjunsland...

Knightbird

I believe Khorbasi is staying. Yun gave her fair well to him "Make all you do a good story." To me that sounds like good-bye.

maatkare22

Just wanted to say hope everyone had a marvelous Harvest Feast day; didn't mean to be disrespectful with my post of last night, and let's just say I remember why one should not stay up too late, drink Jack Daniels and then get on the Internet.

MultiFacets

Oh man, can't wait to get a copy!

RedheadEmber

maatkare22 said: Just wanted to say hope everyone had a marvelous Harvest Feast day


I didn't. Mostly because I didn't celebrate any. Bit late for harvest feast.

As for maybe being disrespectful; what would the world be if people couldn't disagree about things?

travelbug

I think Ember chose to stay in the Junsland to have the palace pretty far away, and because the Mountain top is a holt with potential.
I think they are way to close to Angrif, and they may pay a prize for it in the long run.
But from what we have seen, Angrif will probably go for the Wavedancers first of all.

RedheadEmber

Maybe she just figured that eventually there will be no places where Angrif -and/or other malevolent humans - can't go, so they might as well stay were they are.

jeb

maatkare22 - I am actually thinking the same thing. I feel like with this issue, I've given it a fair try, but I just can't seem to get into this series. I don't know if it's the characters, or the pace of the storytelling, but I'm finding that I really just don't care. I'll probably still visit here to see what people are saying, and maybe if it's intriguing enough, I'll read later, but for the moment, I don't see me rushing to buy another one.

And I don't feel too bad about it. There are other authors that wrote some books I really liked, and some that I couldn't get past the first chapter.

lunakat

I don't mind this first chapter. To me, it sort of reads as another prologue. I think the pace is slow because we have two months to wait between issues- but, if you read them all together, it flows at a fairly decent pace.

As for why Ember stayed where she was- maybe it just seemed like a decent location. Like Cutter said- it's defensible. It seems peaceful- and she has done a lot of searching for holts in her time. She might just be tired of it. A lot had just happened in the story- and everyone probably needed a break. To go holt hunting after all of that would have been a little exhausting probably- especially when they had a good enough place right there.

I'm just wondering if they will be able to hunt enough animals to sustain them. It's a mountaintop, after all. They could conceivably eat up all the animals in the first few months- and just be stuck in a small town with an empty grocery store.

lunakat

travelbug said: I think they are way to close to Angrif, and they may pay a prize for it in the long run.
But from what we have seen, Angrif will probably go for the Wavedancers first of all.

Angrif is boring. He doesn't even have cannons- and he can't figure out how a gun works with the thing right in front of him. All the elves have to do is sink his battleship. Where is Rayek when you need a hole blaster? Can a dead Surge still make waves? Be creative people- you have magic!

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: I think the pace is slow because we have two months to wait between issues- but, if you read them all together, it flows at a fairly decent pace.


Yeah... reading the new issue every other month it seems a bit "Jeez... how slow are they in solving things?" but in reality the events from issue 1 to issue 6 have taken place over the course of a few days, at the most.
Looking at it from that perspective quite a lot has happened.

Blackbird

lunakat said: Angrif is boring



Yeah..he is...he is so one dimentional. He just feels evil, and just that.
I hope he is not supposed to be the villan in FQ.

Embala

RedheadEmber said: Looking at it from that perspective quite a lot has happened.
Agreed.

RedheadEmber

Let's see:

Krim (and Lehrigen) died
Sust injured (quickly healed)
Ember and Teir recognized
Ember captured
Holt lost - the tribe on the run
Pool injured (quickly healed)
Teir almost drowned
Everyone rescued
Teir learns about his heritage
New holt
First version of the new Abodean Tribe Swap

BTW: Am I the only one who loves how Windkin his lifting Scouter up when the first check over the new (potential) holt? Best father-son scout team on the planet!

Thornbrake

jeb said: And I don't feel too bad about it. There are other authors that wrote some books I really liked, and some that I couldn't get past the first chapter.


Yes, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, either. Sometimes the storytelling changes, sometimes we ourselves change in what interests us. I'm quite enjoying the Final Quest, myself, but there are certainly Elfquest stories that I like more than others.

RedheadEmber

Blackbird said:
lunakat said: Angrif is boring



Yeah..he is...he is so one dimentional. He just feels evil, and just that.
I hope he is not supposed to be the villan in FQ


Actually, I very well think he ain't. Look at the blurb from issue 7:

"The powerful psychic Sunstream assumes the role of his race's "link" to all elves, galvanizing the World of Two Moons' secretive tribes. The Wolfriders seek guidance as Cutter, Leetah, and Skywise struggle to adjust. Unexpected relationships form, new journeys begin, a dire threat surfaces, and a beloved tribemate makes a shocking choice.


Looks to me like it's a new threat. Maybe an elf, or a group of elves, who really don't like being found. As in likes it even less than Surge did.

Thornbrake

lunakat said: I'm just wondering if they will be able to hunt enough animals to sustain them. It's a mountaintop, after all. They could conceivably eat up all the animals in the first few months- and just be stuck in a small town with an empty grocery store.


hahaha "empty grocery store" -- there's a surprising diversity of wildlife in high altitude environments. Not always large wildlife, but it's there.

RedheadEmber

There are always birds, I suppose. They got a Glider in their tribe now.

travelbug

I like this part of the story because it ties up loose ends, but I dont really see it as the final quest.
It's a prequel, I think.

I wonder if Wendy and Richard are including the part about Adiirak of the nine wings? (Mentioned in Mender's tale) could that be the surfacing threat?
Angrif's fleet seems kind of to obvious to be the threat.
Maybe Sunstream connecting all elves, surface another crazy elf? Like Haken?

lunakat

Thornbrake said: hahaha "empty grocery store" -- there's a surprising diversity of wildlife in high altitude environments. Not always large wildlife, but it's there.


Does diversity mean a large quantity though?

RedheadEmber said: Looks to me like it's a new threat. Maybe an elf, or a group of elves, who really don't like being found. As in likes it even less than Surge did.

I certainly hope so. But I rather suspect it's going to be Angrif Djunn deciding to hunt down every elf on the world of two moons, starting, improbably, with the WaveDancers.

RedheadEmber

travelbug said: Maybe Sunstream connecting all elves, surface another crazy elf? Like Haken?


Or Door, if he isn't really dead. Or just... Winnie, though that would probably be too predictable. >:)

Soreyes

Um am I the only one to find Windkin joining Embers Tribe a little off. I mean he has been pining away for a few thousand years for Ahdri. Then after a day or two back with Ahdri, he up and leaves her. :-O

Embala

Windkin and Ahdri reunited at Korafay's birth in the Prologue ... and he switched tribes when Korafay was "well grown" (said by Sunstream FQ #1) ... 20 years later give or take.

Agreed, 20 years are not a long time for Elves but even for them it should feel more than "a day or two". ;) Guess you've missed the time gap between the start of Prologue and the Final Quest #1, Soreyes. I was surprised about this decision myself, tho.

Soreyes

Embala said: Windkin and Ahdri reunited at Korafay's birth in the Prologue ... and he switched tribes when Korafay was "well grown" (said by Sunstream FQ #1) ... 20 years later give or take.


Doh! Your right. I Brain Farted the advancement of time at the end of the Prologue.

:D

travelbug

I think Windkin is hanging around for a bit with his family, both his parents and Teir :)
It doesnt say that he switched tribes like Yun and Pike.
My impression is that its a longer visit, but not for the long run.

RichardPini

Tavie said: What is up with the dream? Whose dream? Do we have to go back and comb dreamtime? Krim's dream? Pike's dream? Endless snow or pooping trolls? What's it all about, Alfie?!


You mean, what's it all about, Elfie, right? :D

lunakat

Haha! Very pini Richard Punny!

Did we even seen Krim's dream? Was it the same as Skot's? Or did we just make that assumption.

jorenm93

Finally read my copy! Good conclusion for the first story-arc :) But I'm a bit dissapointed about the whole "What's on the mountaintop"-thing

Blackbird

Awh, didn't think about that, Windkin having family time :D Before FQ I thought it was so sad that we didn't see much of Windkin, and him with his mother, I loved them in Sabm.

RedheadEmber

Soreyes said: I mean he has been pining away for a few thousand years for Ahdri.


Just a few years. The events of Forevergreen, and the human attack on Sorrow's End happened at the same time as 'Shards'.



travelbug said: I think Windkin is hanging around for a bit with his family, both his parents and Teir :)


He gets to catch up with his parents and his son!

lunakat

It makes a lot of sense- Windkin hasn't seen Dewshine in at least as long a time as he hasn't seen Ahdri. And he has never known the child he conceived. It's not as if Ahdri is going to vanish again. They've been hanging out for least the past twenty years- so maybe he can take a month or so and get to know his kid and reconnect with his mom.

Embala

True.

MultiFacets

So I got the issue today. I really like that Ember's what, at least forty now? And she's still not too old to sit on Cutter's lap when she needs to. I like the look of the new holt, and I'm glad Freetouch and Dart will have a chance to explore it and change things up. I look forward to seeubg what kind of clothing Freetouch can make. Strongbow is just taking it hard because he feels he's losing Moonshade; he doesn't want to lose his kids too, even though they'll be able to keep in touch.

I'll miss Pike, but he deserves a chance to be close to his lifemates, if even they're no longer in their skin. Ember raises a very good question: In the end, is there truly no middle ground? For the Wolfriders, does it have to be the Palace or the Way?

I'm also reminded of why I'm a hypocrite with this issue. I'm glad Ember had the chance to choose not to be a mother. I'm childfree myself; totally uninterested in being a parent, but unlike Ember, I'd be a terrible mother. Yet I'm disappointed there's no blood of eight and four chiefs. One less cubling means the Wolfriders are one step closer to their inevitable extinction. I know it happened because of what I've seen in "Jink", but I don't want to see the Wolfriders fade out because I relate to them so well, and love them. But the ability to deny Recognition is, as I've said previously, a good way to control the population when all elves except Egg (is his name Aurek?) leave Abode.

In the end, I guess I just have to trust that Elfpop and Elfmom know what they're doing, that this is where the story is meant to go, and they won't let us down. And since it's the Pinis, it'll be easy to trust once I get to that point.

sulken

Chitter realised, there is a surplus of males in Ember's tribe and decided to switch. Her brother might have had just the same thought :P

RedheadEmber

MultiFacets said: One less cubling means the Wolfriders are one step closer to their inevitable extinction.


And I just can't forget that old (as in before the Special got published - not including the parts that went online) teaser were Cutter is all smiles going "babies!" :)

Except it could just be that; a teaser with no direct link to the actual comics. The babies could very well be Shukopek and Korafay.

captainvimes

There were quite a few touching moments in this issue... Ember and Cutter hug in particular. I loved the sketchy art style during Kahvi's flashback, even though Kahvi herself looked kinda rough here and there.
The only thing that is really starting to tick me off is how annoying the elves are in spirit form, with their vague and cryptic comments that they laugh off right before disappearing again. It almost comes across as smug, 'Iknowsomethingyoudon'tknownerrnerrnerr'. I hope there's a good reason why spirits like kahvi or krim are that vague, instead of it just being a hint-planting element in the story...

WhiteMist

Yeah, the part where Ember never aspires a real, good resting spot in herself, is making me that I don't understand her choices. Restless, never relying on something... in a way she brings it on to herself. Is it just me, or is her choice for staying at the Mountain Holt on the one hand, and rejecting recognition on the other, contradicts itself?
She just not seems to know what she wants. It's neither this nor that, holding on to the suffering. The brooding never ends. As Cutter's brooding has a definened form, the loss of his family, her's is standing alone with no projection to put on.

Hope the story will show somewhat lighter moments, like the sparkle she had as a cub, or the picture in which she is having fun in the water with her niece Korafay. I like that! Her earnestness gets a bit in the way. I miss the sweetness Elfquest has in it's heart, even in darker times.

Still like the direction the story is moving. For me the pace is ok.

Weaver

Beautiful. Can't wait to go back and read this entire first chapter in one sitting. I really loved it.

I especially loved how understated the whole issue really was (in comparison to fan speculation at least.) It feels more real and true to the story. The subtlety of the themes has been so well handled IMHO and I really appreciate how things never felt just thrown in for shock value, e.g. no mysterious tribe at the top of the mountain.

FeaturingDart

sulken said: Chitter realised, there is a surplus of males in Ember's tribe and decided to switch. Her brother might have had just the same thought


This is my thought. Isn't Chitter, Dart, and Mender together on the cover of #7? Now I will say this, I am as invested in gay Dart and his finally getting a real lifemate and not this threesome or "soulbrother" alternative, but if Mender, Dart, and Chitter are threesome I might just lose my mind.

But if Mender and Dart are a couple, like a real couple, my fangirl face just might melt right off in the best possible way!

Eyeshigh

I don't think brother and sister treemating is accepted, even in Elfquestworld. It would be too much, even for me! As for Mender and Dart? Maybe...

WhiteMist

I feel brother and sister in that sense would be a bit too much fuzzly and buzzly @-)

But I like the idea them having a solid and strong bond, like Joyleaf and Treestump had.

sulken

Isn't it (implicitly) established, that the queasiness with incest doesn't apply to elves (Weren't Moonshade and Strongbow first meant to be mother and son)? Not that I'm particularly fond of the idea...

There are so many "owner-less males" (Windkin, Mender, Sust, Pool) around, they don't need to threemate. Maybe Dart on the cover of #7 is upset about being dumped for his little sister*? :D

*even though I would like a Dart/Mender couple :P

Sifra

I like Sulkens idea about Dart most! :P

travelbug

Brother and sister together in a three-mating feels a bit uneasy to me.
I do think there is a good chance of Freetouch finding a new lovemate soon, and maybe Dart finding one as well :)

Even if Strongbow and Moonshade were mother and son in the very first concept drawings back in the seventies, that particular part was changed already when Fire and Flight were drawn, and even more when Trueflight was introduced in Wolfrider.
So to say that Wendy and Richard would be ok with Dart and Freetouch in the same threemating because of that would be stretching it a bit, I think.
Call me boring if you want :)

RedheadEmber

Maybe not a three-mating as such, but more Mender being lovemates with both Dart and Freetouch.

WhiteMist

The name "Free-touch" says it all ~O)

A lot of touchy feely things will come by hehe.

And, now I think of it, she will be the lighthearted element balancing the Ember brooding. I look forward seeing them in one tribe.

RedheadEmber

Something I find kinda funny is how Dart talks about how he'll be one of the Elders, together with Dewshine and Scouter. Yes, and Mender, and Windkin - providing he's becoming a full-time member - and Tyleet, and Yun, and Teir.

Thornbrake

Episode 12 of The Elfquest Show is live. Ryan and I talk all about issue #6 of Final Quest and give a few shout outs to some awesome fellow fans who are helping out with the show. Give it a listen here.

jorenm93

Why would Dart and Mender become a couple? I've never seen any kind of affection betweend them, so...

Delhya

I think Chitter will at least try and take care of Sust and or Pools lack of Ownership. LOL Give the girl a chance to work her feminine wiles if those boys are who she is even interested in. still have to read the current issue.

Tam

I'm with you, @jorenm93. Dart and Mender would be odd...I would rather just see Dart and Kimo become official.

Stefan

Well, that was a fun issue.

Only thing i really didn't like was the cut/paste Sunstream in the double spread..Just with a change in shirt from the proloque..( it stood out like a sore thumb on a great page)

FeaturingDart

jorenm93 said: Why would Dart and Mender become a couple? I've never seen any kind of affection betweend them, so...


Not that there is ANY evidence that Dart/Mender is a thing (I think it's a stretch but that whole "finding where you shine" comment from Kimo gave me some foreshadowing feelings) but why can't love blossom where no love was before? Why do they need to have shown affection before? Seems arbitrary to say it cannot be since it was not there before.


Tam said: I'm with you, @jorenm93. Dart and Mender would be odd...I would rather just see Dart and Kimo become official.


I thought it was said that Kimo and Dart were JUST soul brothers? Trust me, no one was more excited when Dart and Kimo became Wolfriders together, and then my dreams were dashed when all Dart did was make Kimo his wolf friend. Plus, I can't wait around for Kimo to come back for Dart to find love. This needs to happen and it needs to happen soon.

I don't know Freetouch well enough (or care enough about her) to care at all who she bangs. But it would be funny if she "free touched" both Sust and Pool and they fought over her affections Head-Hand-Heart style. I know elves don't do that anymore (only Rayek cared about "claiming" a mate, I guess, though I'm curious to know why no one has done such a thing since).

Tam

FeaturingDart said: I thought it was said that Kimo and Dart were JUST soul brothers?


Why can't love blossom where there was love hinted at before? ;)

Really, I would prefer it's a new couple. Dart and Kimo, I'm mostly fine with being headcanon, because I also don't want Kimo to leave Shuna...I want a new relationship to come forth.



FeaturingDart said: I know elves don't do that anymore (only Rayek cared about "claiming" a mate, I guess, though I'm curious to know why no one has done such a thing since).


Probably because they weren't raised with that kind of cultural norm.



Stefan said: Only thing i really didn't like was the cut/paste Sunstream in the double spread..Just with a change in shirt from the proloque..( it stood out like a sore thumb on a great page)


Yeah, I wasn't a giant fan of that either. :/

sulken

jorenm93 said: Why would Dart and Mender become a couple? I've never seen any kind of affection betweend them, so...


With the exception of Kimo, to whom did Dart show any affection and who wasn't a direct family member? ;)

And Kimo always were a rather bland character. He seema to be nothing else than a Dart-shipper (who later became his soulmate, he's the elven Pamela Anderson). It did better, though.

Well, why should they (Dart and Freetouch) need any stable relationship anyway (unless it's for the fans :P )?

Sifra

I don't see any reason why Dart and Mender would become a couple either. To say it's gonna happen because they are seen arguing (or something like that) on the cover of the updoming issue is amusing, but no more then that. It depends on how it will be brought, I guess...
It took me years to get over the fact that Dart and Kimo are not an item after all. If they got into a relationship after all, I'd think it pretty lame... :P
And I liked Kimo in New Blood. He had cute and funny moments.

WhiteMist

sulken said: With the exception of Kimo, to whom did Dart show any affection and who wasn't a direct family member? ;)


Shushen from the Sunvillage. He was killed during the War with the Go-Backs and this event was the main reason Dart went into the Long Sleep.

sulken

WhiteMist said:
sulken said: With the exception of Kimo, to whom did Dart show any affection and who wasn't a direct family member? ;)

Shushen from the Sunvillage. He was killed during the War with the Go-Backs and this event was the main reason Dart went into the Long Sleep.


Shushen was more of a plot-device to show Dart's anger and sadness than a real fleshed-out character... :/

WhiteMist

sulken said: Shushen was more of a plot-device to show Dart's anger and sadness than a real fleshed-out character...


true

RichardPini

MultiFacets said: I'm also reminded of why I'm a hypocrite with this issue. I'm glad Ember had the chance to choose not to be a mother. I'm childfree myself; totally uninterested in being a parent, but unlike Ember, I'd be a terrible mother. Yet I'm disappointed there's no blood of eight and four chiefs.


Not yet, anyway. Just because present circumstance has dictated that Recognition hit the pause button, "dozen" mean it won't be allowed to reboot at some point. Not hinting, just saying.

RichardPini

sulken said: Isn't it (implicitly) established, that the queasiness with incest doesn't apply to elves (Weren't Moonshade and Strongbow first meant to be mother and son)?


More than implicitly. We've stated it right out, several times.

RichardPini

travelbug said: Even if Strongbow and Moonshade were mother and son in the very first concept drawings back in the seventies, that particular part was changed already when Fire and Flight were drawn, and even more when Trueflight was introduced in Wolfrider.
So to say that Wendy and Richard would be ok with Dart and Freetouch in the same threemating because of that would be stretching it a bit, I think.


If such a grouping were integral and appropriate to the story as it evolves, we'd certainly be OK with it. Again, I'm not saying this or that will or won't happen, only that we have no qualms at all about pushing the envelope when it comes to telling the best possible story, and stretching readers' mental and emotional comfort zones.

travelbug said: Call me boring if you want


Well, if you insist... 8-X

WhiteMist

When the *right* integral circumstances occure, is it ok to have a daughter and father relationship/lovemating? In what kind of cirsumstances is that a good story to be told?

I'm quite upset here.

Thornbrake

WhiteMist said: When the *right* integral circumstances occure, is it ok to have a daughter and father relationship/lovemating? In what kind of cirsumstances is that a good story to be told?

I'm quite upset here.


...in the circumstance when you're dealing with an immortal alien race with completely different biology and social structures and norms--which is what Elfquest is. The elves are not human, and they are not us. That said, even if there was a good reason from a storytelling point of view, it would be understandably difficult for we human readers to cope with I think.

krwordgazer

WhiteMist has a point. There is more to our reaction against incest, and particularly parent-child incest, than "queasiness." And this is about more than just the genetic problems we humans deal with which aren't an issue for elves.

The fact is, all we know in our culture are the power differentials, the burning issue of how uncoerced consent can be even possible in those circumstances-- in short, the flavor of real evil and harm that lies over the whole thing. We may understand rationally that these are not issues in two beings who have both lived a very long time, so much so that any age or power difference between them effectively disappears, but we can't just shut off our emotional reaction.

No one is talking about a parent-child incest situation here, of course-- but Dart is what-- 500-700 years old? And Chitter is 20 or 30, right? A brother-sister relationship under these circumstances still can't sit well with readers like me.

WhiteMist

Difficult as in, "O, you will accept it if you understand"?

No, abuse is always hiding behind that terrible dark wall, that is has something to do with the victim's point of view. The recieving part. "It's all in your head." "You wanted it, too." "Don't be so difficult."

No. Sometimes it is very simple. There are boundaries. And there is an acting part. No this or that.

krwordgazer

Thank you again, WhiteMist. There is also the very real fact that there will be readers who have actually experienced incest and who would be triggered by a depiction of it as harmless, even between elves.

lunakat

Just because we can't conceive of it outside of an abusive situation- doesn't mean it can't exist outside of an abusive situation.

Has anyone read the bible? Lot's daughters seduce him into impregnating them because they want to continue his line and have children- and there are no other men around. Apparently God and whoever wrote that passage of the bible- and Lot's daughters- had no problem with that.

I think a lot of the 'ick' factor associate with it is a cultural thing. The crowned heads of Europe intermarried constantly. Incestuous marriages were common among the Pharaohs of ancient Egypt. And in Hawaiian royalty- before the Europeans came- used to indulge in culturally sanctioned incest all the time. It was considered their privilege.

The big problem with all this, of course, was inbreeding. Eliminate that problem- and it becomes much less... problematic. As for the age difference- if both individuals live for hundreds of years, and one is, say, a few decades older... I'm pretty sure that age difference becomes moot after a while.

I actually don't have a problem with it. I have a problem with abuse. I have a problem with unhealthy power dynamics. I have a problem with molestation and rape. I have a problem with genetic inbreeding. I know that, in our world, incest most likely overlaps with or is inherently linked with at least one of those things. But I don't know that it always has to be.

Does that make me morally askew?

lunakat

krwordgazer said: There is also the very real fact that there will be readers who have actually experienced incest and who would be triggered by a depiction of it as harmless, even between elves.


That is a valid point. On the other hand, I'm sure many people have experienced war or physical violence, a child's death or the loss of a parent. No one considered that before writing it into the story.

The way I see it... the elves have a different moral compass in the same way animals do. They seem to do what feels right. If you raise two dogs together who are brother and sister- and you don't get them fixed- you will have puppies. The dogs won't look at each other and say "Oh no! We're related! We can't do that!" They will look at each other and think "I'm in heat- you're in heat. Let's go!"

krwordgazer

Luna, the difference is that EQ has never presented war, physical violence, a child's death or the death of a parent as a harmless and positive thing.

I actually agree with you in theory-- incest would not be abusive between elfkind, and thus not problematic. But I'm not a victim of incest and so I must recognize that I'm speaking from the privilege of not having to deal with the emotional impact of having something that devastated me presented as a good thing.

lunakat

That is an excellent point. So you aren't saying that it has to be morally wrong, or that it couldn't be appropriate within the context of the story- but rather, that it would be irresponsible to depict it given the possible emotional disturbance it could trigger in a reader.

krwordgazer

Yes. The way I look at it, there are always reasons morally wrong things are wrong. A good moral code isn't just a set of arbitrary, senseless rules. Incest is wrong for humans for a number of reasons, including but not limited to harm to the potential offspring (birth defects). Incest between humans, especially in our modern cultures, also includes power imbalance, coercion, lack of consent, and emotional harm.

Eliminating these reasons should mean that the action itself (sexual relations between close relatives) is not morally wrong in and of itself. But can we as humans in our cultures divorce the action from its taint of harm and abuse, just because it involves non-humans? If we haven't experienced the harm and abuse ourselves, we may be able to. But if we have, we may not. And should those who have not experienced it, ask such a thing of those who have?

Hard questions.

And I'm not saying Richard and Wendy Pini haven't considered these questions. They are good people and good storytellers. I'm sure that whatever they do, they will do with care.

Sifra

krwordgazer: Luna, the difference is that EQ has never presented war, physical violence, a child's death or the death of a parent as a harmless and positive thing.

Very well said.
I have not expirienced incest, but I have lost a child. If Elfquest (or any other series) depicts the death of a child as a harmless or positive thing, in whatever way, I stop reading it because it brings up too much emotions. So I understand how people can be triggered by a parent/child relationship, or a relationship involving Dart and Freetouch.

RedheadEmber

I don't think they would be in a relationship. Maybe he's going into protective big brother mode on Mender on the cover on issue 7.

Eight and two rules for dating my sister:





BTW, does anyone know what Ember is referred to as The blood of eight and three chiefs while Cutter is referred to as The blood of ten chiefs?

WildBlossom

I believe it was once stated that Blood of Ten Chiefs was coined before they reasoned that elves would count in eights instead of tens. After the counting in eights was established in story, Ember was then referred to as Eight and Three.

Meanwhile, I find it amusing that Elfpop in the Family Relations thread used "dozen" instead of "doesn't" right after mentioning Ember and Teir's paused recognition and the possibility of more cubs for the tribe.

RichardPini

WildBlossom said: After the counting in eights was established in story, Ember was then referred to as Eight and Three.


Cutter is still referred to as "blood of ten chiefs" however. Why? Because it sounds infinitely better and less clunky than "blood of eight and two chiefs." So then, you will ask, why not give Ember "eleven" status? Because "eleven" isn't as cool as "eight and three." We've got the notarized Artistic License that gives us the right to do stuff like that. :D

WildBlossom said: Meanwhile, I find it amusing that Elfpop in the Family Relations thread used "dozen" instead of "doesn't" right after mentioning Ember and Teir's paused recognition and the possibility of more cubs for the tribe.


Clearly, you do not yet know the length and depth to which I will go for the sake of wordplay.

Rob

krwordgazer said: there are always reasons morally wrong things are wrong. A good moral code isn't just a set of arbitrary, senseless rules


Ahah, but for that word, "good"... who decides if a moral code is good or not?

It was considered so immoral to marry someone of another skin color in the USA that it was made illegal to do so, and the laws remained on the books in many places until the 1960s.

About half of the country still thinks homosexuality is immoral.

But these moral codes? They're being slowly destroyed and displaced by better ones. Who decides? Us.

It's true that storytellers can't wish away the cultural and personal context that readers bring. But it's also true that a careful awareness of that context makes it part of the story.

FeaturingDart

WhiteMist said: When the *right* integral circumstances occure, is it ok to have a daughter and father relationship/lovemating? In what kind of cirsumstances is that a good story to be told?

I'm quite upset here.


I find Cesei and Jamie Lannister from Game of Thrones (if you are familiar with this story, and if anyone is not, I highly recommend the books and series, talk about complex characters, but anyways) I think this is a great example of incest not only being an integral part of the story but a way to stretch the reader and force them to revel in the ickiness of it, but then realize that it totally makes sense when you get inside the character's head (which you do in GoT). This is an example where brother/sister love IS totally wrong culturally (unlike elves) and it made for a fantastically interesting plot line.


krwordgazer said: There is also the very real fact that there will be readers who have actually experienced incest and who would be triggered by a depiction of it as harmless, even between elves.


I just have to mention that this is quite a strong statement to make, and kind of a roundabout argument for censorship. I mean, Wolfrider! dealt with some of the most close to the chest human problems (alcoholism, domestic abuse) and I think we are all better for reading such a tale, no matter the triggers. Such is not a reason not to go there, so to speak. How else do we deal with these complex and troubling issues if not through art and metaphor?

lunakat

krwordgazer said: Yes. The way I look at it, there are always reasons morally wrong things are wrong.

Morality is dangerous territory- because it changes culture to culture. What's immoral in one culture can be considered moral in another.

krwordgazer said: Eliminating these reasons should mean that the action itself (sexual relations between close relatives) is not morally wrong in and of itself. But can we as humans in our cultures divorce the action from its taint of harm and abuse, just because it involves non-humans?

I hope so- because my friend's dog actually did make puppies with her brother. Both are fixed now- but they didn't see that one coming.

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: I don't think they would be in a relationship. Maybe he's going into protective big brother mode on Mender on the cover on issue 7.

Eight and two rules for dating my sister:


This seems most likely! :D

lunakat

Say... not to derail this conversation... but something just occurred to me. We now know a very good reason why Kahvi would have abandoned Tier. She had "the Silent One" stalking her. He himself told Ember that, in his time, he killed dozens of elves. If Kahvi, in her wanderings, lead (I keep wanting to call him Leningrad) the human dude to the groups of elves that she met up with- and if he killed some of them along the way... maybe she would have felt it was better to walk away from Tier and just leave him with a foster family to raise- and let the human track her elsewhere.

Tam

lunakat said: We now know a very good reason why Kahvi would have abandoned Tier. She had "the Silent One" stalking her. He himself told Ember that, in his time, he killed dozens of elves. If Kahvi, in her wanderings, lead (I keep wanting to call him Leningrad) the human dude to the groups of elves that she met up with- and if he killed some of them along the way... maybe she would have felt it was better to walk away from Tier and just leave him with a foster family to raise- and let the human track her elsewhere.


It seems pretty clear though that she left Teir with a foster family before being found by Lehrigen. When they first meet, Teir isn't with her, and she says, "Having shed every worldly tie, I get to use myself up as I like."

Llannen

What a discussion to jump into after almost a week of the release of this comic.....

Reading the comic I always wonder in my head about what people will comment on and never did I imagine the discussion of the different types of pairings-mother/son and more. I feel that when artists have represented it, whether it be in Game of Thrones or Freud's interpretation of Shakespeare's Hamlet (Oedipus complex)-it is with a portrayal of sadness and or tragedy. Do I want to understand the motivations of Jamie and Cersei or others in such desires...not really, but as FeaturingDart said previously, you get in their heads and while not understanding the flaw, you understand their motivations. If that makes sense? I do love how respectful you have all been discussing this.

I felt relieved with this issue. I liked the slower pace and felt like I could breathe while reading.

Glad to have Kahvi's story, although I wonder if Venka did get to spend time with her after she left on her search to find her mother.

AAARGH....back to the Dreamtime to reread them all again!

RedheadEmber

RichardPini said: Cutter is still referred to as "blood of ten chiefs" however. Why? Because it sounds infinitely better and less clunky than "blood of eight and two chiefs." So then, you will ask, why not give Ember "eleven" status? Because "eleven" isn't as cool as "eight and three." We've got the notarized Artistic License that gives us the right to do stuff like that. :D


But Ember's is still referred to as Blood of Eleven Chiefs in HY 27.

What would happen if they got beyond 16 chiefs? What would say the 19th chief be, The Blood of Two Eights and Two Chiefs?

Tam

Well, hopefully the 19th chief would be Blood of Two Eights and THREE...

RedheadEmber

No. The chiefs are the blood of their number in the chief's line minus one. Cutter is the Eleventh chief, and is the blood of ten chiefs.
Two eight = 16 + 2 = 18.

Blackbird

Llannen said: Glad to have Kahvi's story, although I wonder if Venka did get to spend time with her after she left on her search to find her mother.


If Kahvi died just before the palace reappeared, then no..Venka was wrapped up with the rest then :( I hope she have learned what happen to her though, if not I feel that is a priority for #7, Venka also needs to know about her mother and her new brother :)

It's fascinating how a picture of Dart, Freetouch and Mender end up to be a discussion about how we will handle the incest-three-mating ;)

My theory about the pic is either Dart not liking Freetouch hooking up with Mender, or Freetouch started acting out, living away from her mommy for the first time ;)

TalonClaw

In terms of pacing, it seems like it has gone really fast. Sunstream is now father of an adult cub whose life we missed out on . . . I'm still trying to process Leetah and Cutter as grandparents!
And the capture and psychological torture of Ember went fast, as well as her rescue. The human ruins were somewhat anticlimactic as I feel there is backstory here I'm not familiar with. Is it a reference to something out of Wild Hunt?
Ember and Teir, recognition, then no recognition, okay sorry not now. Teir's true parentage, wow! Not totally unexpected except for Windkin's part, feels like Return of the Jedi where everyone is related to everyone else, tying up many loose ends and all very convenient (please no feral teddy bears!) .
And Kahvi got cheated somehow, I always thought she would get a better death than that . . .

It's been quite a ride and I get the hints from WaRP that we ain't seen nothin' yet, so . . .
I wouldn't mind a little slowdown in some of the characters' lives, honestly, but I am just glad they decided to tell this story anyway after almost two decades of promising and teasers.

Knightbird

Blackbird said: Venka also needs to know about her mother and her new brother


I get this idea from the cover of #7 that is what Windkin might set out to do.

Blackbird

Yes, I think so to.

Thornbrake

Blackbird said: If Kahvi died just before the palace reappeared, then no..Venka was wrapped up with the rest


She met Lehrigen just before the Palace reappeared and the Wolfriders woke up. But she played her cat-and-mouse game with him for what looks to be a few decades, so it's quite possible Venka did encounter Kahvi again before she died.

Thornbrake

Here's a perfect example of all the different perspectives that Wendy and @Richard hear from fans and critics (and no doubt have heard about EQ from the beginning) and why they need to tell the story the way they feel is best.
:-\"



maatkare22 said: if this is the pace of storytelling for The Final Quest, I feel I'm better off waiting several years for the whole thing to wrap up before I buy another issue on release day



Eyeshigh said: I hate to say it too, the pace of the story is slow.... In the "good ol'days" more happend in one issue.

Still I do believe/hope the pace will go up



Llannen said: I felt relieved with this issue. I liked the slower pace and felt like I could breathe while reading.



TalonClaw said: In terms of pacing, it seems like it has gone really fast.

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