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Let's Talk About... THE ORGY!

RedheadEmber

Just so @Thornbrake and Ryan can get some inspiration for when they make their Orgy Special. Come on! You know you want to! ;)

Right, so while I realise that an important part of the orgy is to work as a stress-reliever - because nothing helps ease your mind like rolling in the furs with all your tribemates - I can't but thinking that from a making the tribe continue perspective wouldn't it make more sense to have the orgy after the battle? As it is now half the females who died in the war could've been pregnant.

wingthing

The orgy would have perfect sense if the girls had stayed home to man the fort. You know, take a page out of 300's playbook. Sparta needs sons and all that. As it was, it definitely read exclusively as "let's all get our rocks off one last time... oh... pregnancy? Well that's just icing."

Here's the question I've always had - since everyone knew that Dewshine was pregnant, why didn't ANYONE suggest that maybe she ought to stay back at the lodge instead of... like, Kiv? Did Treestump throw a killer tantrum off-screen? Did Dewshine make a rousing "my body, my choice" speech? Or was everyone too lovenumbed to remember there was a baby on board until they were already hip-deep in troll guts?

And now I'm gonna curl up in a ball and weep at the thought that Vaya might have been pregnant with Pike's baby when Kahvi abandoned her to be cut into pieces by trolls.

RedheadEmber

You're right. It is a bit weird that Dewshine fought. At least Cutter remembered that "Oh. Hey! My little cousin is kinda preggers" during the fight in the throne chamber.


wingthing said: And now I'm gonna curl up in a ball and weep at the thought that Vaya might have been pregnant with Pike's baby when Kahvi abandoned her to be cut into pieces by trolls.



Now... let's be fair to Kahvi: She told Vaya to go while she stayed behind. Vaya just sorta... knocked her out.

Leanan

RedheadEmber said: I can't but thinking that from a making the tribe continue perspective wouldn't it make more sense to have the orgy after the battle? As it is now half the females who died in the war could've been pregnant.


Well... let's assume that the Go-Backs do not count embryos right after conception as 'elf souls'... or that if they do count them as souls, they do not see their destruction in battle circumstances any worse than the death of adult elves...

By that logic, having the orgy before the battle does make sense. Although some of the mothers and embryos are destroyed, those mothers would have died anyways, pregnant or not, and not borne any more children.

But by having the orgy before the battle, some of the males who will die in the battle will have the last chance to pass on their genes, to get a female pregnant who will survive the battle.

Also, I would assume that Go-Backs have sexual relations with each other whenever they feel like it, not just at big orgies before each battle.



wildfire

wingthing said: And now I'm gonna curl up in a ball and weep at the thought that Vaya might have been pregnant with Pike's baby when Kahvi abandoned her to be cut into pieces by trolls.

Oh no you made me sad

The Go-Backs have always been a bit odd like that, they don't really see death the same way as the Wolfriders but why Dewshine got to fight is weird. The Wolfriders are usually extremely protective of their lifebearers (Rainsong and Tyleet just to name a few) and for them it would be common sense to have them stay behind.



wingthing said: Did Dewshine make a rousing "my body, my choice" speech?


For me it makes the most sense if this is what happened, but damn I would have liked to see this.

lunakat

wildfire said: The Go-Backs have always been a bit odd like that, they don't really see death the same way as the Wolfriders but why Dewshine got to fight is weird. The Wolfriders are usually extremely protective of their lifebearers (Rainsong and Tyleet just to name a few) and for them it would be common sense to have them stay behind.


The way I see it, it's a question of priorities. The Wolfriders were protective of their lifebearers because they were low in numbers and, as far as they knew, they were the only elves around.

After meeting the Sunfolk, Gliders and the Go Backs- they knew there were plenty of elves in the world. Dewshine was only just pregnant. She wasn't showing and it wasn't inhibiting her in any way- and they probably needed, at that moment, as many fighters as they could get. Plus.. it would have been a little 'precious' of the Wolfriders to insist Dewshine stay behind (we already know she's not that type) on the basis of pregnancy- considering that the entire Go Back tribe had just done everything possible to get every female they could pregnant.

And, frankly, they were all walking into this prepared to lose lives. You don't not lose lives in a war. Their priority was to get the Palace back and finish this thing - not to stay safe and cozy in a nice warm lodge until the babies all came.

In light of the Go Back lifestyle and culture- I think the orgy made a lot of sense. It was a way to enjoy life intensely- one last time- before risking a likely death in battle. More importantly, it was a way to plant as many seeds as possible so that, even if only a few of them made it back, there would be new births. And it gave Ryan and David something to mention every podcast. Utterly practical.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: And it gave Ryan and David something to mention every podcast. Utterly practical.


Very important! ;)

wingthing

Redhead Ember said : Now... let's be fair to Kahvi: She told Vaya to go while she stayed behind. Vaya just sorta... knocked her out.


Oh, I was thinking afterwards, the "She chose, she's gone" line. Let's face it, if it had been say.... Nightfall captured and Cutter in charge Ekaur would have reopened that hole in the wall within a heartbeat and the Wolfriders would have gone flying back in there. Okay, granted... Kahvi didn't know the trolls were slowly and dramatically dragging Vaya away, their backs to the wall like a pair of stormtrooper mooks. But it was still pretty damn callous (and hey, typical Kahvi!) to be talking about avenging her when... you know, there is still plenty of time to actually RESCUE her.

Tam

lunakat said: they probably needed, at that moment, as many fighters as they could get. Plus.. it would have been a little 'precious' of the Wolfriders to insist Dewshine stay behind (we already know she's not that type) on the basis of pregnancy- considering that the entire Go Back tribe had just done everything possible to get every female they could pregnant.


This. It seems like they needed every body available for that war; the only one who stayed behind was Redlance with the fawns.

This is also why Kahvi kind of...giving up on Vaya so quickly didn't bother me. It's callous, sure...but Kahvi was the leader of a war tribe, and probably thinking numbers. How many were they willing to risk for one life? There was no guarantee that they would save her without casualties or serious injuries, both of which would be of further detriment to the fighting force as a whole.

The orgy BEFORE the war makes sense to me. It not only has the purpose of possible reproduction, but it brings the tribe (tribes, in this case) together, it gets the blood boiling, it's a good distraction, it's a great way to spend possibly your last night...and if they were to have the orgy afterwards, I mean...it would be super lackluster. *laughs* "Hey, we just mourned a pile of our friends, now let's all go have sex with each other." Better for procreation, not so good on morale.

lunakat

wingthing said: Oh, I was thinking afterwards, the "She chose, she's gone" line. Let's face it, if it had been say.... Nightfall captured and Cutter in charge Ekaur would have reopened that hole in the wall within a heartbeat and the Wolfriders would have gone flying back in there.


I actually don't think so. They barely made it out of that pit. I don't think Cutter would have risked his entire two armies in order to rescue Nightfall- especially not at that juncture (they had just gotten there). You will notice he didn't go running to rescue Skywise when there was trouble- instead, he looked at the bigger picture. Sure, that was is brother in a crisis, not able to move and likely to get killed if he didn't pull it together. But that was just one life- and Cutter had a responsibility, at that moment, for three others.

Kahvi not rescuing Vaya was not example of Kahvi being a callous mother- it was an example of her being a good leader. Kahvi was responsible for her entire tribe. She was also responsible for their mission. A lot of her people had just died in order for them to get this far. They were close to accomplishing what they had dedicated their lives to achieve. To go back just to save her own daughter- when so many others had died for this- would have been selfish.

Also- Vaya was an adult. She could have stayed at the lodge with Redlance (Pike thought she had)- but instead she chose to go to war. She then chose to rescue her mother and defend the retreat. The most glorious thing you could do, for the Go Backs, was to die honorably in battle. Vaya had just chosen that. Kahvi accepted her choice-- not just because there was nothing that could practically be done about it at that point-- but because her daughter was an adult member of the tribe, and that's how they lived.

lunakat

Tam said: This. It seems like they needed every body available for that war; the only one who stayed behind was Redlance with the fawns.


And one other adult Go Back.

Tam said: This is also why Kahvi kind of...giving up on Vaya so quickly didn't bother me. It's callous, sure...but Kahvi was the leader of a war tribe, and probably thinking numbers. How many were they willing to risk for one life? There was no guarantee that they would save her without casualties or serious injuries, both of which would be of further detriment to the fighting force as a whole.


Exactly.

Tam said: The orgy BEFORE the war makes sense to me. It not only has the purpose of possible reproduction, but it brings the tribe (tribes, in this case) together, it gets the blood boiling, it's a good distraction, it's a great way to spend possibly your last night...and if they were to have the orgy afterwards, I mean...it would be super lackluster. *laughs* "Hey, we just mourned a pile of our friends, now let's all go have sex with each other." Better for procreation, not so good on morale.


That's a good point (about getting the blood boiling). Also- even if males were killed, there would still be a chance their offspring could be born after it was all over- depending on how the dice were rolled.

RedheadEmber

wingthing said: But it was still pretty damn callous (and hey, typical Kahvi!) to be talking about avenging her when... you know, there is still plenty of time to actually RESCUE her.


Of course the big question here is how would Vaya feel about being rescued?

I don't think Kahvi didn't care for Vaya; she cried for her for Two-Spear's sake! Knowing Kahvi, I don't think tears are something she'd shed lightly.
So maybe the "She chose, she's gone" line was Kahvi's way of accepting that her adult daughter had made a choice. Maybe Kahvi deep down wanted to rescue Vaya but knew Vaya wouldn't want it.

lunakat

Hmm. I think Vaya would have been glad for a rescue. She was scared sh**less- and facing a potentially painful death. But she did make a choice. And I think she and Kahvi both accepted that choice, fully understanding the consequences.

wingthing

lunakat said: You will notice he didn't go running to rescue Skywise when there was trouble- instead, he looked at the bigger picture.


Ah, but he did ask if Skywise was hurt. It was only when Skywise admitted he wasn't hurt, but scared, that Cutter closed him out... kicking off a nice arc of betrayal and resentment to be resolved in Wolfshadow. Bigger picture indeed ;)

lunakat

Yes- and he probably would have come if Skywise were hurt- but Cutter isn't Kahvi. Cutter is much more sentimental than Kahvi. Even unhurt- if someone tells you they can't move in the middle of a sword swinging battle- the chances of them getting killed are pretty high. So Cutter took a gamble with his friend's life. And he made the most practical decision- because he knew the young Go Back he was with and Dewshine could not fight as well as Skywise could with a sword (presuming he got it together).

But it was still a gamble. Resentment or whatever- that's on Skywise. If Cutter hadn't done that- who knows? Maybe Skywise would have gone with him to find Nonna and Adar or wouldn't have jumped Aroree and set off the events in 'Seige'- but that's a whole nother issue having to do with one character's anger at another. Not with the ethics of the choice made in the first place.

My point is just that Cutter wouldn't risk everything to save a friend. He wouldn't have opened the wall and gone, guns blazing, back to save Nightfall. He didn't tell Dewshine to stay behind at the lodge- rather, he let everyone come who was willing. And he didn't go running to save Skywise. He did the more practical thing and stayed with his cousin and the stranger he had just met.

Kahvi is a hundred times less sentimental than Cutter. She clearly had feelings for her daughter- but she was more dedicated to the larger goal. I think the fact that Vaya was Kahvi's own daughter showed that what Leetah assumed wasn't the case. Kahvi wasn't just ruthless and uncaring. She was true to her philosophy and dedicated to her cause and her people. She didn't break for anything.

krwordgazer

Excellent analysis, Lunakat! :)

RedheadEmber

I like how a thread on the orgy went to become a discussion on Kahvi's choice to leave Vaya behind. >:>

Vaeri

i always personally loved the panel of Nightfall and Redlance, both with seperate partners yet reaching out to hold each others bodies anyway. kind of a "yah, we'll enjoy the orgy, BUT WE STILL LOVE EACH OTHER SO MUUUUCH!!!"

and it still vaguely bothers me that Kahvi is like his great to the Nth cousin...i know there's a lot of dilution, cause Cutter's a newer generation, but jeeeeez! XD

and i love that Ekuar gets a little action too.^^

lunakat

Aw- i also liked seeing Ekuar happy that night!

Re- Kahvi and Cutter.. It's NBD. Everyone's related. If you think about it, Scouter and Tyleet are cousins too. Nightfall is Scouter's cousin- because their father's were brothers. So that makes Tyleet and Scouter- what? Second cousins? Tier and Ember are similarly related- because Dewshine (Windkin's mother) is Cutter's first cousin. And, if I recall correctly- i think that Moonshade and Strongbow were originally conceived as a mother-son recognition. I could be wrong- but I think that's what the Pini's first incarnated them as. They decided against it (i know I read this somewhere) because they figured it would be too out of left field for their audience. All in all, though, the elves are pretty closely linked. I figure the point of recognition is to time it just right, and with just the right people, that the elves involved avoid the pitfalls of inbreeding. Crazy- no?

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: I figure the point of recognition is to time it just right, and with just the right people, that the elves involved avoid the pitfalls of inbreeding. Crazy- no?


I think it's been pretty much stated that elves don't have the human issues of inbreeding. Think about it:
The Wolfriders are all descended from Timmorn, who had quite a lot of children with several women.
The Sunfolk are all descended from a small group of elves.
The Go-Backs, well... they're descended from the Wolfriders for starters, and considering their breeding-ways and the fact that I'd dare say the majority of them neither knows nor cares who their sire might be, it's entirely possible that some who're rather closely related could have had a child together. Unless of course the Power of Recognition still has some sort of "breeding control" within the tribe; not to decide when a baby should be born of a union, but to decide when a baby should definitely not be born.

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: I think it's been pretty much stated that elves don't have the human issues of inbreeding.

Right- And I'm hypothesizing that that is because of recognition. Let's admit it- the Go Backs do seem to be a little stunted in ways.