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Elfquest “Final Quest” #6 preview!

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Elfquest “Final Quest” #6 preview!

"The human warlord Angrif Djun, more furious than ever, prepares a massive assault upon every elf living on the World of Two Moons. Master archer Strongbow faces an unexpected betrayal. And within the Wolfrider tribes, Chief Cutter and Chieftess Ember wrestle with a dire choice that will define—or destroy—their worlds." Enjoy several pages of artwork…


Read the full story here



Stefan

And...Here's a little sneak preview of nr 6...

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=24328

Eyeshigh

OMG, shall i go and take a look?!?


OFCOURSE, lol.

Stefan

You should... it's amazing! Flashbacks!

Eyeshigh

You are right!!!!! Mayor flashback! Guess we can't put spoilers here, but after reading the preview..... we have (again) two looooooonnnnng weeks ahead of us.. hihi.

Stefan

Well, we can.. As it states 'preview' ;p

Eyeshigh

<:-P

Stefan

Thank god, no hairpulling smiley ;)


Btw, i think Pike has the best line yet in issue 6.

Embala

Thank you for bringing this in regulary, Stefan!

Eyeshigh

Hihihi. #:-S


Btw, are you on the hunt for these previews? You always put them here first, lol. Not that i mind!!! I was looking too today, but Dark Horse still has no preview, will check this site more often.

......hmmmmm, got a bookstore maybe?

Stefan

No worries, it's fun to do ;)

Eyeshigh

Made a bookmark!! Thx!

Eyeshigh

Just checked something! A while ago Richard place a picture here showing us the pages of #6. I looked at them again and this preview isn't the start of the issue! It is missing 3 pages!
1AEFH73KZRCN
See the 4th picture! The coloring! ..... 0_0
:))

Stefan

Haha, great eye..I guessed it wouldn't be the first pages as they didn't show us what's on the mountain... Although you can see some kind of structures in the background of those preview pages...It looks like stacked stones to me...i Guess we'll see what it is on that double spread page (pages 2,3)

At first i wondered if Aurek had a hand in crafting it..But the stacked stones hint at non-magic

Eyeshigh

But it can't be something dangerous, because they are still there on the mountaintop! Ahhhhh, the wait! Want to know what is going to happen, lol!

travelbug

I'm not as exited about this preview as the previous one. I dont think its bombshell news in this one.
But I think Tyldak and Kahvi are adorable together :) :)
And I find Ember's thoughts about the palace interesting.

Knightbird

CSI: Abode >-)

Eyeshigh said: Just checked something! A while ago Richard place a picture here showing us the pages of #6. I looked at them again and this preview isn't the start of the issue! It is missing 3 pages!


Thornbrake


Stefan said: Btw, i think Pike has the best line yet in issue 6.


Me too!

lunakat

I wonder what Cutter and Ember were talking about that he would mention "no elf must die"?

I am also wondering, now, if Skywise will be the one to make a shocking decision in issue 7, rather than Moonshade. I think Moonshade's decision is sort of already made. (After reading his thoughts, I wonder if he will do something unexpected he thinks is in Cutter's best interest.) It says in the description that Strongbow "faces a shocking betrayal." I think that Moonshade's decision will be made in this issue.

I'm also wondering what they found on the hillside. Do stacked stones indicate a rockshaper? Or do they indicate some kind of construction?

Thornbrake

Eyeshigh said: I looked at them again and this preview isn't the start of the issue! It is missing 3 pages!


You've lived up to your name @Eyeshigh! The preview does seem to start already in the middle of the conversation. My guess is they chose those pages so as not to spoil what's at the top of the mountain.

Eyeshigh

I was wondering if I could make out more of the small pictures, but no. Then I thought....the colors are different! Lol.


@Thornbrake: It must be 1. too important or 2. it would spoil too much, but it could also be an 3. Aha-moment so to speak!
But it can not/ will not be as shocking as we all thought, or they would have talked about that and not about the Palace and how it would and already is changing the Wolfriders.
Or Teir wouldn't be getting his thoughts together about family.
And Kahvi wouldn't have time to tell her story.

........ CSI indeed! :)

lunakat

It's the reveal of what's on top of the mountain.

Stefan

What if some human in the past saw the Palace floating over and deceided to try to make a simulacrum..

Wouldn't that be a nice little circle?

RedheadEmber

What is it that you can see up there in the "image"?

RichardPini

.

jorenm93

I can't acces the website :(

EDIT: I can only read it with IE, not with Mozilla/Chrome

Arthis

@RedheadEmber the image shows (second red line) that page 2 and 3 are a double page, which is not the case in the preview, so we can suppose that the preview starts after page 3.

RedheadEmber

Arthis said: @RedheadEmber the image shows (second red line) that page 2 and 3 are a double page, which is not the case in the preview, so we can suppose that the preview starts after page 3.


How can you see that?

Thornbrake

FYI just merged this discussion with Richard's official one.

Weaver

Wow! This is going to be a POWERFUL issue. Amazing! So much speculation goes on in the forum and how it's usually about showing more elves, more relationships, more cubs (I'm plenty guilty of this myself); we all think we want to see this stuff but what really makes Elfquest so great, and so different from 98% of comics and fantasy out there is how you guys keep the narrative focused on the main characters, their challenges and relationships. I know it's been a while since the days of HY/S/NB/BOTC/WD/etc. but it's still so refreshing to see Elfquest's parents at the helm driving the story forward at just the right pace and focusing on just the right characters. Many thanks.

Thornbrake

This is an exciting preview! NOW we're really diving into the main dilemma of the Final Quest: The Palace or The Way?

Eyeshigh

Haha, love Richard's comment!!!

.

lunakat

Ya! Another brilliant non-statement from Mr. Pini!

Thornbrake said: This is an exciting preview! NOW we're really diving into the main dilemma of the Final Quest: The Palace or The Way?

Does anyone else want to just grab Ember, shake her, and say "That's what your job is for!"?

Like seriously- how complicated is that really? I mean- so Ember keeps the way with her group. She can do that on a daily basis- and the elves can stay strong and whatever. Meanwhile, the elves that choose the Palace can still have the Palace. Most of the elves living in the Palace aren't Wolfriders anyway. They are Sunfolk. The Sunfolk were never that tough and strong to begin with. The Palace is actually quite a nice and appropriate solution for them. And the Wolfriders who do live there? Well, let's face it. Next to Chitter, they are kind of old. Unless they decide to give up their Wolfblood, they are not going to be around forever anyway. In the wild, they might even be dead by now.

Seriously, Ember- why so extremist? Why does it have to be an either/or? She can choose not to use the Palace daily, keep tough, and yet not lack the common sense to call on it in a true and dire emergency. Sort of the way we don't use 911 all the time. You use it when you need to- when you absolutely need to- and all other times you figure out your own problems.

Thornbrake

lunakat said: Does anyone else want to just grab Ember, shake her, and say "That's what your job is for!"?


I think it's deeper than just saying "We're going to live by the Way and you can live in the Palace." What Ember is realizing is that the Palace is actually changing the elves - regardless of whether or not they want it. And that could mean it's eventually going to change the Wolfriders into, well, not-Wolfriders. The Palace could be unwittingly doing what Winnowill was trying to do deliberately: wiping out the Wolfriders altogether, maybe by removing their wolf-blood against their will. Who knows, but there's definitely something more deep and dangerous going on.

lunakat




Thornbrake said: but there's definitely something more deep and dangerous going on.


I hope so!

Eyeshigh

It seems to me Cutter abandoned the Way a long time ago. At the moment he said "no elf should die!", he had chosen another path. For those who can not or will not follow he later decided Ember should lead them.
So it is Embers' task to keep the Way, whether or not the Palace can be part of the Way we must wait and learn.

To me, travelling in space seems dangereous too....
I don't know if Cutter will travel with it or for that matter Skywise or Leetah, they love Cutter too much to leave him alone at Abode and Cutter may not want to give up his mortality...:(

RedheadEmber

Eyeshigh said: It seems to me Cutter abandoned the Way a long time ago. At the moment he said "no elf should die!", he had chosen another path. For those who can not or will not follow he later decided Ember should lead them.


I always thought of that as meaning no elf shall die if it can be helped. But if it can't? He was the one who told Mender not to feel guilty that he couldn't save Zhantee because "death is the master of everyone".

lunakat

It's interesting that Cutter is the one who can adapt to the changes and his daughter cannot.

Thornbrake

Eyeshigh said: It seems to me Cutter abandoned the Way a long time ago.


lunakat said: It's interesting that Cutter is the one who can adapt to the changes and his daughter cannot.


Yeah, I think Cutter has been able to adapt to change, which isn't the same as abandoning the Way. At the same time, Ember's focus on keeping the Way alive isn't necessarily a failure to adapt to change. She's responding to a new threat: the Palace itself.

Interesting that she calls it a trap. Surge called it that too, but for very different reasons.

RedheadEmber

Thornbrake said: Interesting that she calls it a trap. Surge called it that too, but for very different reasons.


I knew I'd seen it being called that somewhere before...

Eyeshigh

Ok, the word abondoned wasn't right, but he has stretched the Way more then any other Wolfriders has. But he is Kinseeker, not Keeper of the Way, to me Strongbow and Moonshade always were the Keepers.

Thornbrake

Eyeshigh said: Ok, the word abondoned wasn't right, but he has stretched the Way more then any other Wolfriders has. But he is Kinseeker, not Keeper of the Way, to me Strongbow and Moonshade always were the Keepers.


Yup, and also Cutter had to deal with way more change in the world than any other Wolfrider chief before him. So it's only natural for him to be the one to stretch the Way so the Wolfriders could evolve and survive.

jeb

lunakat said: In the wild, they might even be dead by now.


:D

Hmm, so whatever they see on the mountain gives Ember some bad feelings about the palace.

phaonica

I decided that this issue is a good place to start an experiment. When this next issue, #6, arrives at my house, I'm going to keep it sealed and not read it. I'm going to keep doing that for a year (6 issues). I'm having a lot of trouble with the story pacing and I'd like to see if I'm better off reading multiple issues as a collection. I'll report back how it goes.

Eyeshigh

Whow, I think I could never do that! What I usually do is grab all my copies and read those before I start on the new one. Done that all the years I have been a fan and it works for me.

Good luck!


Btw will you be reading the previews? Then it may be harder to uphold your decision...!

Silvermane

Amazing is right just like I posted on Facebook... Cutter is used to being without Skywise but Skywise is not used to being without Cutter.. what will he choose?? Can't wait!

wingthing

What Ember is really saying:

Embala

XD Ember got it! ^^

Knightbird

Ever so true... :-j

RedheadEmber

That is great!

Arthis

RedheadEmber said:





Arthis said: @RedheadEmber the image shows (second red line) that page 2 and 3 are a double page, which is not the case in the preview, so we can suppose that the preview starts after page 3.

How can you see that?

Because there is only one file for pages2&3, versus one file for each of every other pages.

lunakat

When you think about it, the Way kinda sucks... I mean, it's a great alternative to anarchy and random acts of violence... but as an alternative to peace and safety and general well being? I don't get it. Maybe freedom vs. a gilded cage- sure. But are freedom and 'The Way' the same thing?

captainvimes

Ooh, previews!!! I always love previews :)
I wonder what has made Ember so upset that she has to be cradled by Cutter in the first panel and on the cover. Regardles, it's a powerful loving image.
And I like how the story seems to start touching on the 'nitty gritty' of things, and Ember's way of describing it is very eloquent, a beautiful trap. I totally get her.

Remember the Gliders? Their stagnation partly drove Winnowill insane. What's the panel in the Siege storyline again? "We stopped dying, we stopped giving birth, they don't need me anymore"?
Or in the same context; the meeting between the elders at the beginning of Hidden Years 9.5? They all touch on the same subject. Safety and immortality come at a price, like no little elf babies. With Sunstream's newborn and Ember's recognition, surely that matters. Especially to the wolfriders.

Which is why it surprised me that Sunstream never realized before how much the palace might change the wolfriders. I mean, come on dude!

(also, Kahvi looks 'off'..?)



RedheadEmber

lunakat said: But are freedom and 'The Way' the same thing?


Isn't that was Skywise's dream is all about?

lunakat

I don't know! Maybe so. I think that's what Cutter thinks it is... but then, why does Skywise look so troubled if he has the solution? I hope you are right!

Marivelfall

Love Elfquset i need to finish getting the rest of the comic books to find out what is going on .I miss know what is happening with cutters tribe.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: but then, why does Skywise look so troubled if he has the solution?


Because he hasn't. He dreams about finding the 'Perfect mix of safety and excitement', but he hasn't found it yet.

wingthing

lunakat said: When you think about it, the Way kinda sucks...


Kinda? It's the camping trip from HELL is what it is.
If anyone needs me, I'll be in the Palace with a pina colada.

Eyeshigh

I'll join you with a bottle of dreamberrywine, but go out to play and hunt! :) ;)

RedheadEmber

wingthing said:
lunakat said: When you think about it, the Way kinda sucks...

Kinda? It's the camping trip from HELL is what it is.
If anyone needs me, I'll be in the Palace with a pina colada


I honestly don't get what you guys think is so bad about the Way. Sometimes, to me, it seems like you think it's a just don't give a damn if you, or anyone close to you, dies! "rule", whereas I've always seen it as a live, try to survive, but don't spend all your time being afraid of dying. Basically the Way is the middle ground between being so afraid of death that you forgets to live and actively seeking death.

Think about it; all the other four tribes have at least partly suffered the consequences of this either or mentality:
The Sunfolk got so dependent on Leetah's healing that they reacted in fear and despair when she decided to leave in order to find Cutter. Luckily they still had some of the toughness that's required for living in the middle of a desert, even if it's in an oasis as nice as Sorrow's End.
The Gliders shot themseves completely off from the world and they first went into total stagnation, was very* briefly led by possibly the most evil being on the WoTM, and then got a mountain falling on top of them, so that now there is a grand number of one of the original gliders left.
The Go-Backs went the other way and became death seekers, sure at first they were in that rather unfortunate situation of being in constant war with the trolls, and after that there was the issue of the basis for their entire existance being taken from them, but even so it was rather unnecessary to attack Sorrow's End. Juding by Windkin's tale they'd basically dwindled into small wandering tribes at some point during the Long Sleep. Now, of course, they (or at least some of them) are with Venka who might be able to bring them back into order.
The Wavedancers spent so much living in fear of everything around them that they ended up not only being afraid of humans, which they really had a good reason to be, but also other elves. Seems to me that now they're on their way back to a more fearless way of living, as Snakeskin said right before Korafay's birth "It's hard to abandon all the old ways, but the birth of a new pip is a good place to start." Sure, it's been more than 20 years, but compared to how long the elves live, and how long the Wavedancers lived in fear, that's not really a whole lot of time. Brill's insistence of giving birth in open Water wasn't due to her foolishly believing that there was no danger out there, but because she knew that it's possible to face and defeat that danger. Of course it also helps knowing that your shapechanged lifemate has some rather exquisite frills that are toxin/venomous/poisonous/whatever.

(Yeah. That was a rather long defence of the Way...)

*When you think about it; the three years Winnie led the Gliders would be to us as if we (whatever country any of us lives in) had a new leader who lasted for... and hour, even even that long.

Eyeshigh

I don't think the Way is wrong, it is life!
In order to be healty you need birth and death, happyness and sadness, in a short therm, you need emotions, feelings
To me the deaths of many are right, although I didn't liked some of the people being dead.
Though it is strange... "oh no, he is dead..... hey, there you are again!".

Timmain knew the elfes needed the Way, needed to understand again that death, again, needed to be part of life again as did the birth of children!
I agree with Ember, it is a lovely trap, just like Blue Mountain was. If you are contempt, you don't make progress........

Embala

RedheadEmber said: so that now there is a grand number of one of the original gliders left.
nitpicker mode on: TWO ... three in case Door actually survived Dodia's attack

Besides this I pretty much agree with your dwfwnce of the way, Redhead. :-j Personally I believe that there is not One Right Way ... everything can get out of balance, everything can be done better (especially in hind view ^^) - and elves are different in attitude, skills and aims. There should be choice .

For some it will be easy, for some hard ... and some might choose wrong - in backview.

RedheadEmber

Embala said: nitpicker mode on: TWO ... three in case Door actually survived Dodia's attack


Oh... Aurek... forgot about him.

Thornbrake

RedheadEmber said: Juding by Windkin's tale they'd basically dwindled into small wandering tribes at some point during the Long Sleep. Now, of course, they (or at least some of them) are with Venka who might be able to bring them back into order.


I'm most interested in seeing how Wendy and Richard deal with the Go-Backs. We know that at least some of them wandered away from the Frozen Mountains and ended up on the plains of Djunsland wandering nomadically in loose groups - and relatively recently--within Teirs lifetime, since his adoptive parents seemed to have started out in the Frozen Mountains. From the end of Shards #16, we know that some stayed on in a more or less traditional Go-Back lifestyle in the Frozen Mountains.

I like the fact that there was at least some splitting and change into an essentially new "tribe" over the course of 10,000 years. Based on the cover of issue #7 looks like we'll find out more soon.

Knightbird

I'm interested in the Go-Backs too. It reminds so much of the my family history I have been working on.... Some families come to a complete stand still or even die out, yet others thrive beyond all points.

I can see someone seeking out Venka and Aroree with the news of the deaths of Tyldak and Kahvi. That was one of the reasons why they left with the Go-Backs in the first place. Yea...I can see Windkin being the one with a mission.

RedheadEmber

Juding by the cover of issue 7 he will meet up with them. And judging by this preview Kahvi will tell her story. So my guess is that Windkin, once he's heard Kahvi's story, will go off to find Venka and tell her about what happened to her mother, maybe after one of the others remembered that "Oh, yeah! That's right! Venka left because she wanted to find out what happened to her mother. Windkin, can you go find her and tell her? Also that she has a Brother. BTW; Aroree is with her, she's really sorry she kidnapped you all those years ago, don't carry a grudge."

KenHollie

Strange...Ember said the same thing Surge said some time ago. "The palace is a lovely trap." Wow!! Same statement...different situations.

Dio

That statement came first from Reef aka "The Broken One". So it appears there was indeed some deeper meaning to that. I wonder what...

Delhya

One heart, one mind it seems is how it is supposed to be, however, the Way puts a burr in the boot.

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: Juding by the cover of issue 7 he will meet up with them. And judging by this preview Kahvi will tell her story. So my guess is that Windkin, once he's heard Kahvi's story, will go off to find Venka and tell her about what happened to her mother, maybe after one of the others remembered that "Oh, yeah! That's right! Venka left because she wanted to find out what happened to her mother. Windkin, can you go find her and tell her? Also that she has a Brother. BTW; Aroree is with her, she's really sorry she kidnapped you all those years ago, don't carry a grudge."

Yay! Yep- it would probably take a minute or two for them to remember that Venka was looking for Kahvi. A lot has just happened in a short amount of time- they would have to process it a little.

As a side note, I don't see why Windkin would hold a grudge against Aroree. That happened when he was a baby. He probably doesn't even remember much of it. Dewshine or Scouter might- but they managed to live with her after the Palace came back, right? Before Shards- so they should have worked all that out.


Dio said: That statement came first from Reef aka "The Broken One". So it appears there was indeed some deeper meaning to that. I wonder what...

I thought he was talking about the fact that the purpose of the palace was to fly the elves back up into space. Even Skywise says that's the end goal.

BTW- I'm really liking Final Quest. The artwork is great! The story is not rushed, but moves at a fast pace. Very nice.

Delhya

So got my copy of number six today. I enjoyed all of it!! Am still thinking on some things though I like how things are going but will miss Kahvi in the flesh. Her death shows us how you just don't know how things will end.
Most memorable I must say, I loved the exchange between Strongbow and Moonshade about their children! I had a such good laugh over such a small part, it still make me smile. They have grown so much as characters to me. ^_^ <3

**They can't even keep their own hair out of their eyes!** ~Strongbow
**Well WHO do you suppose they take after, lifemate? ~Moonshade

Delhya

So reading through again got a cool effect from my curtain and the afternoon sun peaking in when I opened to this page. Not that this frame needed anything more to it but wanted to share.

It reminds me of when Ember confronted Cutter's choice to not let her go in the Palace to the Sun Village. It was so looong ago now it seems, she looks so weary now for still being so young.

Cutter Ember

jeb

Is it wrong that I'm reminded of Cutter and Kahvi at the orgy?

RedheadEmber

Delhya said: **They can't even keep their own hair out of their eyes!** ~Strongbow
**Well WHO do you suppose they take after, lifemate? ~Moonshade


I still think Strongbow was being literal. Have you seen any of those people's hair recently?

Arthis

Tonight, tonight, there's only you tonight...

"you" being my copy of issue #6!!! :D AT LAST!

Zeina

Is it wrong that I'm reminded of Cutter and Kahvi at the orgy?


Nope. I thought the exact same thing.

lunakat

Zeina said: Nope. I thought the exact same thing.


That doesn't make it right!

Zeina

Ha, I know. If anything it's so wrong...

RedheadEmber

You can just blame it on @Thornbrake and Ryan and their mentioning of the Orgy in every podcast!






Though I think they forgot for this one...

Knightbird

Hey you know I listen to Episode #12 again last night...I don't think they brought it up once???

Thornbrake

It's true. We forgot to mention it last time.

RichardPini

Thornbrake said: It's true. We forgot to mention it last time.


Watch it, guys, you're slipping...

manga

So, new theories: Jink is the child of Yun and Cutter.
Also, the Cutter-freak out face Wendy teased us with is his reaction to being hooked up to the Elfin Psychic Grapevine. The last time we saw him look that freaked out was when Skywise and Timmain blanked the Palace under him and he couldn't handle the vertigo. This may be something similar; maybe he can't take having so many others' thoughts so close to his own. Leetah didn't look so upset because, as she's never had a soul name, this is similar to how she's always experienced living among the Wolfriders, just different in scale.

krwordgazer

Of course I re-read the whole issue again, and now I'm curious. Why doesn't Ember's tribe have any Preservers? They used to have at least one. Preservers are dang useful if someone gets wounded, and I'm sure Ember could get one or two to agree to go with them!

Even Strongbow never complained that putting a sick or wounded elf in wrapstuff was against the Way!

RedheadEmber

krwordgazer said: Of course I re-read the whole issue again, and now I'm curious. Why doesn't Ember's tribe have any Preservers? They used to have at least one. Preservers are dang useful if someone gets wounded, and I'm sure Ember could get one or two to agree to go with them!


I've been wondering about that too. Maybe they do have preservers, but don't use them for the storing food purpose. Or... they cast a vote an decided those Preservers are too damn annoying and they'll just do without. :bz

lunakat

Maybe a wolf ate it

RedheadEmber

:O)

krwordgazer

lunakat said: Maybe a wolf ate it


Too chewy.
:D

Thornbrake

krwordgazer said: Why doesn't Ember's tribe have any Preservers?


I think it must be their conscious decision to live by the Way as it was before the discovery of other tribes, preservers and the Palace.

RedheadEmber

And metal.

manga

You know, I was thinking last night and "Final Quest" is reminding me strongly of the last few books of the "Dragonriders of Pern" series. (The ones up to "All The Weyrs of Pern.") They've rediscovered their real history and things like modern medicine and they're mostly throwing themselves to the future as fast as they can go. Those who hold out for "the old ways" are made to seem pretty dim in the face of that.

Ember's tribe is the definition of "holding to the old ways." That's their stated purpose. Wendy is treating them more sympathetically than Anne McCaffery did, but it's an interesting parallel.

RedheadEmber

There's something I've kinda been wondering about Strongbow for some time.

Cutter says the fact that Strongbow calls council with his own voice means that he wants to be heard for sure. Uhm... I thought Strongbow preferred sending because in his opinion that's the best way to be heard.

BTW: Should this be merged with the other issue 6 thread? The one that started after the issue came out?

manga

I think Strongbow prefers sending because it's the best way to be UNDERSTOOD. But their tribe now includes some (Shuna and Shukopek - hey, what happened after Leetah worked her mojo on Shuna anyway?) who can't send, so Strongbow has to make allowance.

lunakat

That's a really interesting point, Manga. The Wolfriders are in a curious situation- because their own traditions are not actually the "old ways" (as you put it). The new ways are really the old ways.

I think that's why Strongbow flipped out at the end of the Original Quest.

RedheadEmber

manga said: hey, what happened after Leetah worked her mojo on Shuna anyway?


My guess is that it's what will eventually enable Shuna to send, as we saw/will see in the beginning of SaTS.
The question of course is then how was the humans able to receive her sending? Maybe it'll turn out that even those who can't send themselves can receive a sending, if the person sending really concentrates. Bet Strongbow would love that!
"Hey! Strongbow. Guess what. You could just've sent to Shuna all the time!"
:(

lunakat

Do we know she's talking to other human beings?

RedheadEmber

She's describing the elves as "spirits" and "hidden ones".