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Elfquest: The Final Quest 8

RedheadEmber

Sunshade said: (PS even after all this time, I write/think "Sunstream" only with difficulty. He'll always be Suntop to me. I may slip!)


I know what you mean. Little 'Suntop' has a daughter who is older now than he was when she was born.

sulken

lunakat said: Does that also mean having and dominating the most powerful mate? Is his significant other also one of the things he has to be better than?


I guess Rayek (or at least his "pre-humbler" self) would want to be stronger than his partner*, because anything less would mean he is the weaker one.

Perhaps he dislikes the "ready mouthed" Go Back females, but I doubt he is much fonder of the agreeable Sun Folk maiden, either.


*maybe his relationship with Winnie humbled him, since he is certainly the lesser magic user

Thornbrake

Sunshade said: In other news, I am now ALL OVER the idea of Rayek and Sunstream, SULKEN.


Talk about a power couple!

lunakat

Cutter would kill him!

manga

I will never agree to a charge of misogyny. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree - but it sounds to me like you just don't like him and are willing to charge him with everything you consider heinous.

He was abandoned by his entire village when he was 10. I can't count letting a one-armed 10-year old do all of the hunting for a village of 30-40 (according to Wendy, but I forget where) adults as anything else. (No one knew he had magic at that time, though Savah suspected.)

When I get home I'll get out my copy of the novelization, which has a little more background to why he considers the other maidens less interesting, including the fact that NO ONE IN THE VILLAGE except Savah and Leetah could or would look him in the eye. (My assumption is that his mesmerizing magic "leaks" just enough that other elves found it discomfiting.) Who wants to have sex with someone who won't look at you? Nevermind what it would do to someone psychologically to never have eye contact.

He is messed up on a grand scale. I won't go into everything I see in him because this thread has been hijacked enough (that's why I asked Sunshade to PM me). But the word for "hates everyone equally" is "misanthrope" and I'll give you that easily.

RedheadEmber

manga said: He was abandoned by his entire village when he was 10. I can't count letting a one-armed 10-year old do all of the hunting for a village of 30-40 (according to Wendy, but I forget where) adults as anything else. (No one knew he had magic at that time, though Savah suspected.)


But he wanted to hunt for the tribe. It gave him pride, and rightly so, that he was able to do something to help feed his tribemates.
Also, he begun hunting before he "lost" his arm, and we didn't really see him do much hunting after that.




lunakat said: Cutter would kill him!


Even if doing so would hurt Sunstream?

Embala

RedheadEmber said: But he wanted to hunt for the tribe. It gave him pride, and rightly so, that he was able to do something to help feed his tribemates.
I agree.

But it also made him feel responsible. Responibility for a whole village depending on a preteen. Seems a bit much for a child ...

... and it nursed the thought that there was NO EQUAL. None of the adults seemed to get the idea: When the kid can do so - we can, too! And don't tell me they don't have magic ... you can (re)invent hunting methods that don't depend on magic.

For me the main problem with Rayek was that he actually did not have an equal, someone who dared (or cared) to meet him at eye level.
Savah was a generous mentor and "Granny" and honored Elder. Leetah was a "little sister" before she became a lovemate and had no interest to compete with him - besides within the relationship.
He was the superior one ... and everybody agreed. Guess this had influence on the mindset of an adolescent child.

Embala

I lack the right words and terms to express exactly what I mean ...

As a teen I had my "own world". A mindgame, never shared, never written down ...
The main protagonists were immortals, stronger and of better health than the "normal" poeple. More daring, feeling responsible, much better trained and of better knowledge. And they used to "loose" their children (means had to abandon them somewhere among normal, mortal people) or adult kin by some incident.
In my imagination it was of most importance to find them again ... because the child/adult, no matter how "goodwilled" s/he would be, will fall to madness or "godilke" arrogance or malice sooner or later (within several hundred years) or fall into depression when they don't have "equals" around. Equals who share their abilities, can guide or - if necessary - discipline them.

These were the thoughts of a near-child ... but that's what might illustrate my thoughts about Rayek's developement best. He was missing equal counterparts. Missing tribemates he had to arrange with. Instead he only had admirers.

Does this make at least a bit sense?

lunakat

He was NOT abandoned.

Little Patch was abandoned. Tier was abandoned.

Rayek was not abandoned. That never happened to him.

RedheadEmber

Embala said: ... and it nursed the thought that there was NO EQUAL. None of the adults seemed to get the idea: When the kid can do so - we can, too! And don't tell me they don't have magic ... you can (re)invent hunting methods that don't depend on magic.


They seemed to learn quick enough once Dart began teaching them. So the question is; was it the other villagers who did not want to learn from Rayek, or was it Rayek who did not want to teach his fellow villagers?
Both seem entirely possible; the villagers did not seem to eager to be taught by a "scrawny youth", but Rayek didn't really seem like a 'teacher type' to me either, what with expecting everyone to be able to scale to rocks as quick as him.

manga

RedheadEmber said: But he wanted to hunt for the tribe. It gave him pride, and rightly so, that he was able to do something to help feed his tribemates.
Also, he begun hunting before he "lost" his arm, and we didn't really see him do much hunting after that.


I'm not saying they should have stopped him but the fact that no one, not even his parents after he came home with an arm shredded by jackals, tried to join him? When it has literally been so long since they've had a child born that the next-youngest elf is fully-grown, there is NO ONE else who ever lived through a drought and resorted to hunting? Even Savah, as awesome as she is in other ways, used to hunt back in the Green Growing Place and later when there were only 5 elves in the village - and even she sat back and let someone who hadn't even seen his first decade hunt alone.

Little Patch was definitely abandoned. Teir was not abandoned either, by your measure, Lunakat. Kahvi walked out on him but she left him with a family who were ready to take him in. Rayek was abandoned in a significant way by the adults in his life, which led to exactly what Embala described - him growing up firmly rooted in the knowledge that he was the only one who was competent.

I'm not trying to absolve him of responsibility for his actions. But blaming him for everything seems as fruitless as blaming Two-Edge for being mad. Outside forces made him so before he had a real chance. What I like about him is that he still tries to be good. He's fundamentally broken and so he screws it up, but he's trying.

(Aww, man, Luna, you jinxed us! No sooner did you mention the arguments there used to be about Rayek (in another thread) then we find ANOTHER one brewing. ;) )

Embala

RedheadEmber said: So the question is; was it the other villagers who did not want to learn from Rayek, or was it Rayek who did not want to teach his fellow villagers?
That's basically what I'm talking about, Redhead. They were no "equals" for him ... did never even try to.

Come on - Rayek "did not want to teach them" - and they simply agreed? Responsible adults gave up the idea of hunting by themselves because there was a child in charge that refuded to teach them? No one came up with an idea of their own?

Rayek's conclusion that he is superior to them seem's more and more reasonavble for me. ^^

RedheadEmber

Embala said: Come on - Rayek "did not want to teach them" - and they simply agreed? Responsible adults gave up the idea of hunting by themselves because there was a child in charge that refuded to teach them? No one came up with an idea of their own?


But we don't really know if that's the case. Maybe Rayek's "teachings" simply consisted of telling everyone that if they couldn't keep up with him then they could just go back to digging the dirt. Of course they never got the idea about hunting themselves; before Rayek brought home his first kill none of them ever thought eating meat was a possibility and after the drought was ended they were basically "Why do you still wanna hunt? We got vegetables now, and bread!"
Not even sure Rayek could have taught them; his hunting was purely based on his magic, when he went hunting the old fashioned way with Venka and Zhantee during HY he was brought back to being a total newbie.

Embala

My point is: He was jsut 10 to 12 years - IF he was so old.

IF they could not come up with own ideas how to hunt ...
IF they depended on his teaching ...
IF they agrred tim him "shooing them off" ...
IF they were fine to depend on the hunting supplies of a barely half grown child ...
THEN the actually were no equals for him.
THEN they fed his idea to be superior, to be the only one to be capable.

And he was just a child at this time ... how else should he have developed?

Sure, Rayek had a certain attitude, a certain mindset from the beginning ... but they supported this self-percetion instead of teaching him that there are other ways, other values, other skills that count, too. They made themselves dependant from ONE person (if only during draughts) - dependant from the great magic user.

To some degree Rayek's abilities, his gifts grew foul the same way Winnowill's abilities did. different and for other reasons ... but he could have "gone on the dark side" to the full.
He did not. He lerned hard and late ... but he learned.

RedheadEmber

Embala said: Sure, Rayek had a certain attitude, a certain mindset from the beginning ... but they supported this self-percetion instead of teaching him that there are other ways, other values, other skills that count, too.


But they did attempt to teach him that after the drought. Unfortunately theire way of doing so was basically by saying "The drought is over. You don't need to hunt anymore." Which was basically the same as saying "Stop doing something that you really like."



Embala said: They made themselves dependant from ONE person (if only during draughts) - dependant from the great magic user.


I don't like they did, made themselves dependant of just one person. They kept working day and night to secure a meager harvest.
Or maybe just night, seem they were practically nocturnal during that time.

Embala

RedheadEmber said: Which was basically the same as saying "Stop doing something that you really like."

Right.
And it was just "NOW we don't need you anymore. You can help out again when harvest is meager again." instead of "we'll do our best to stand for ourselves next time. You are a skilled hunter and a vital help. But we will look for additional ways for ourselves. Interrested to share your experiance?"

RedheadEmber said: I don't like they did, made themselves dependant of just one person. They kept working day and night to secure a meager harvest.
I'm aware they did their best to gring up another harvest, season by season. They were not lazy - they worked hard.

But they did not consider an alternative for themselves. No "second pillar" for supply. They only conted on this one way - which obviously was not sufficiant during draughts - and on the Hunting skills of ONE "superior skilled individual".



lunakat

Yeah- hunting was sort of his thing. It was what he decided to do because he didn't want to contribute to the farming effort.

RedheadEmber

Embala said: But they did not consider an alternative for themselves. No "second pillar" for supply. They only conted on this one way - which obviously was not sufficiant during draughts - and on the Hunting skills of ONE "superior skilled individual".



They'd had centuries, possibly even millenia, during which farming was an adequate food source. Couldn't really be expected to become hunters in the about 12+ years the drought lasted. Once it was over farming was once again enough and probably remained so until the Volcano errupted during NB.

wingthing

RedheadEmber said: Couldn't really be expected to become hunters in the about 12+ years the drought lasted.


And yet they did become hunters in 3 years with Dart's help. But only when they had no other option. Dart didn't say "I'll hunt for you" like Rayek did. He said "I'll teach you." If Dart had basically become Rayek the Second, I'm quite sure the Sun Folk would have been quite happy to sit back and let a child do all the work. Like they did with Rayek.

I'm with Manga. They exploited the heck out of Rayek as a kid. Sure, as an adult, if he wants to carry the burden by himself and do all the hunting so they can idolize him, that's his call. But the fact that they enabled - no, encouraged him to be the sole hunter/protector from the time he was like... seven? How is that NOT gonna give the kid a complex?



manga

Ok, I have my copy of the novelization. However, to avoid further highjacking of the thread, I'm going to make my comments in Rayek's character thread. Y'all are welcome to join me, of course. :)

Tam

All the talk of Rayek's childhood and upbringing, how much the village depended on him for food and whether or not the tribe abandoned him a bit...none of that really excuses his actions. It simply explains them. Yes, when taking his upbringing into consideration, it makes sense that he would feel some sense of entitlement in regards to what he thinks he deserves in return for his work, and that he might think of himself as better than everyone else because of his hunting skills...all that makes sense. But he still doesn't have the right to treat others the way he has.

I definitely think the Sun Villagers exploited Rayek as a kid. But he's still an asshat. An understandable asshat, but still.

Zeina

You know I will join you, Manga... I adore Rayek :|

manga

Tam, no one is saying any of this excuses his actions or attitudes. We're just discussing the basis for them.

Wingthing, I'm with you. And nice to have you join us, Zeina! Poor Brownskin needs his supporters. People don't flock to him the way they do to a certain blond barbarian. ;)

travelbug

I'm a Rayek fan too :)
I think his story is one of the most interresting ones. I like how he makes poor choices and eventually changes bit by bit through them.
(I guess thats pretty human)

lunakat

I agree. What I object to is this notion that Rayek was somehow an abused child.

I went back and reread the story just now. He is perfectly well taken care of by the village. He isn't abandoned or neglected by his parents. They just can't play with him while they work. He is sitting right next to them, tugging on them while they try to garden. He's not being abused. He's just bored. He's clearly being supervised. He's just throwing a temper tantrum.

Later on, he doesn't like his food. They tell him that since he refused to help with the gardens, he should be content with what he gets. He doesn't get slapped across the room. He gets food he's not crazy about and a gentle reprimand for refusing to eat it during a near- famine.

No one spanks him or forces him to work in the gardens either. They just let him go play. He isn't encouraged to hunt by anyone. He figures out how to kill things completely on his own. (Which is a little disturbing, frankly.) His parents are shocked, but understanding. The worst thing they do is to let him keep doing it. They praise him and thank him. Not child abuse.

Until he has the run in with the jackels, he hasn't even been doing anything particularly dangerous. He's been killing mice. Mice, lizards and some snakes. No one expected him to go confront anything bigger than that. He did it completely on his own- because he wanted the challenge- and the first time he does it is when he gets hurt. When he comes home- his parents are concerned and immediately fetch aid and he gets medical care. They also fuss over him. Again- not child abuse. Not even neglect. That's just taking care of him.

After that, he is approached by the Mother of Memory, who has been watching him this whole time (again- not neglect) and she tells him she knows he has been using a power and she wants to train him. He then gets special training. Again... not neglect.

He then proceeds to develop his special skill under training, while feeling embarrassed about his arm. He loses touch with his parents because he has little in common with them- although he sees them around. He stays with the Mother of Memory, who voices her concern about his insecurity and hopes he will overcome it. Not child abuse.

And then Leetah is born. And she heals his arm. Without this inhibition, he becomes thoroughly arrogant.

Throughout this story, Rayek is cared for, praised, allowed to do what he wants and given special attention for his special talents. He's so very not an abused kid.

The Village does end up relying on him when they don't have rain. But I don't think it gets to the point of exploitation. It's just a practical response to hard times. He's never pushed to do it. He likes it and he's good at it.

The difference in life experience between Rayek and Leetah is a little like the difference between Skywise and Cutter. Rayek and Skywise both grow up during some difficult times, when bad weather leads to lack of food- they are the only kids so they are probably lonely (Skywise expresses being lonely I think. Rayek seems frustrated by the lack of someone to play with), and they are different from everyone else in that they have outside interests the rest of their people don't share. Cutter and Leetah, by contrast, grow up in peaceful times, with lots of food and good weather- and they have and automatic friend close to their own age. They relate to their people and they both know they are special, but don't feel alienated for being different. At the same time, they are both aware of their future responsibilities to their people- Leetah as a healer, and Cutter as someday chief.

But neither Rayek nor Skywise are abused for lacking mentorship or for being different. They just do their own thing. And they act according to their natures. Rayek would probably have excelled at being a Wolfrider, and Skywise would probably have been more at home as a Sun Villager.

manga

Uh, Lunakat, that scene where little Rayek wanted to play? They were saying "Great Sun, child! Go inside!" Who leaves a preschooler alone? They can injure themselves or damage needed food and materials awfully quickly. He was definitely neglected. There was no malice to it, I'm not claiming "Harry Potter" levels of deprivation here, but the fact is he was left on his own far too much and at much too young an age. Who loses touch with their 11-year old "because they have little in common?"

You're right about the attention he did get - I've never said he didn't get any, just that he didn't get what he needed when he needed it.

Skywise had the whole tribe parenting him, I don't think your comparison works the way you think it does, but I agree they'd probably have been pretty happy if they'd been switched. Now there's another AU I haven't seen yet! Hah, that would be fun. Poor Cutter Recognizing Skywise and Leetah at the same time! (Though whether Leetah would have been born without Rayek's hunting saving the village is debatable.)

lunakat

manga said: Uh, Lunakat, that scene where little Rayek wanted to play? They were saying "Great Sun, child! Go inside!" Who leaves a preschooler alone? They can injure themselves or damage needed food and materials awfully quickly.


Lots of non-American cultures, apparently:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-grossloh/have-american-parents-got-it-all-backwards_b_3202328.html

wingthing

In human subsistence-level farming societies, baby Rayek would either be left in the care of older siblings/grandparents (not an option here), or strapped to his mom's back (okay, he's getting a little big, granted) or allowed to sit in the shade and and "help plant" by digging little holes or weed or something. Not told "the gardens are more important than you." Gardens are useless without a steady supply of workers to tend them.

I really got the sense (and the low birth rate may be to blame - lack of mentors and all) that Jarrah and Ingen were not very prepared/inclined to be parents. Rayek was just an appendage they toted around until they could absolve themselves of responsibility.

... Imagine if they had given him a little spade and said "Come plant with us!" He might have become an arrogant, misanthropic farmer. "I AM RAYEK! NO ONE CAN TEND PLANTS BETTER THAN ME! HAHA!" Oy. Yeah... best they didn't do that, actually. \m/

lunakat

That's sort a lot to get from one panel where they tell him to go inside while they work.

lunakat

You know how we know he wasn't ignored? Because he says so.

When Leetah is born, he says "being totally ignored was also a new experience. Like it or not, my place at the center of attention had been usurped."

He has never been ignored. He flat out says it. He doesn't say "I hadn't been ignored since i was three." He says he was never ignored.

wingthing

lunakat said: That's sort a lot to get from one panel where they tell him to go inside while they work.


This is what the Rayek-obsessed do \m/

lunakat

wingthing said: This is what the Rayek-obsessed do

Lol! Good point.

Say... not to take too much of a break from Rayek... but I was thinking about that scene in the teaser where he blasts back some aggressors- and Venka is lying in Ekuar's arms, all bloody-like. I wonder if she gets shot?

RedheadEmber

wingthing said: And yet they did become hunters in 3 years with Dart's help. But only when they had no other option. Dart didn't say "I'll hunt for you" like Rayek did. He said "I'll teach you." If Dart had basically become Rayek the Second, I'm quite sure the Sun Folk would have been quite happy to sit back and let a child do all the work. Like they did with Rayek.


But how do we know that they didn't, at some point in those 600 years between HY9 and the Wolfriders' arrival, try to get Rayek to teach them (or he tried to teach them)? If he was just being "Pff! Can't keep up, dirtdiggers." I'd say it's entirely possible that in the end they simply thought "He's right. We're not hunters." and gave up.

manga

.But how do we know that they didn't, at some point in those 600 years between HY9 and the Wolfriders' arrival, try to get Rayek to teach them (or he tried to teach them)? If he was just being "Pff! Can't keep up, dirtdiggers." I'd say it's entirely possible that in the end they simply thought "He's right. We're not hunters." and gave up


Because we're fairly certain that he couldn't have resisted the urge to boast/sneer at some point in "The Enemy's Face," the story we get most of his back story from. :)

manga

Say... not to take too much of a break from Rayek... but I was thinking about that scene in the teaser where he blasts back some aggressors- and Venka is lying in Ekuar's arms, all bloody-like. I wonder if she gets shot?


Eep! Good (insightful and scary!) point. At least elfin shielding has already been shown to be proof against bullets.

RedheadEmber

manga said: Because we're fairly certain that he couldn't have resisted the urge to boast/sneer at some point in "The Enemy's Face," the story we get most of his back story from.


There's still a 600 year timeskip from that story to the Wolfriders' arrival. At any point in that period the other villagers might have requested that he trained them, only for him to instantly call them inferrior as soon as they couldn't keep up with him.
How could he have sneered at their abilities in HY9 if they only begun thinking about being trained some hundreds years after that?
That could also be at the root of their initial reluctance to let Dart train them:
"Oh come on! This village's mightiest hunter couldn't teach us, now this youth wants to try? Come on!"




lunakat said: Say... not to take too much of a break from Rayek... but I was thinking about that scene in the teaser where he blasts back some aggressors- and Venka is lying in Ekuar's arms, all bloody-like. I wonder if she gets shot?


If she ends up getting shot by Two-Edge's gun (or even one fashioned after its model) then I Wonder how he'd feel about it.

manga

Ember, I'm on my phone and can't get copy and paste to work. Whatever happened in that 600 years after would be at least partially Rayek's responsibility, of course. (He taught himself, after all, so anyone who quit because he couldn't or wouldn't teach them has a share of responsibility for their choice to let that stop them. I'm not saying they're criminally culpable, just possibly lacking in backbone.) But that the entire village sat back and let a one-armed eight-year old save them from starvation - that I do consider criminal. Or at least crazy on the scale that measures doing the same thing (continuing to devote all your working and resources to farming) over and over and expecting different results as crazy.

I'm afraid of what Two-Edge would do if one of his weapons hurt Venka. Though I suppose if he came up with Kevlar and bulletproof vests it wouldn't be too bad.

RedheadEmber

manga said: Or at least crazy on the scale that measures doing the same thing (continuing to devote all your working and resources to farming) over and over and expecting different results as crazy.


Of course it was crazy. Just like letting a bunch of derranged zwoots destroy their crops every now and then was crazy. 3:-O




manga said: I'm afraid of what Two-Edge would do if one of his weapons hurt Venka. Though I suppose if he came up with Kevlar and bulletproof vests it wouldn't be too bad.


Maybe that's his new surprise (as mentioned in the preview for issue 7) 8-X

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: Of course it was crazy. Just like letting a bunch of derranged zwoots destroy their crops every now and then was crazy


I have noticed that when the elves get together in large groups, a significant number of them become very passive. It's almost like human society.

Think about it...Blue Mountain, the Sun Village, The Palace elves.... American voters...

No, but seriously- maybe that's just what happens with them. Maybe that's why peace, to a certain degree, tends to lead to stagnation. If the High Ones lived with what we've been calling a "hive mind"- then maybe large groups of elves tend to naturally fall into the segregated roles/duties of a functioning communal organism. Like any large human society.

Zeina

Think about it...Blue Mountain, the Sun Village, The Palace elves.... American voters...
=)) Too true.

MultiFacets

Yeah, I'll vouch for American voters there. XD In seriousness, though, I know why we're politically apathetic: When we try to do the right thing and vote for the people who will look after our interests -in my case, it's affordable health care, bringing the troops home, and women's and alternate sexuality rights-, we keep getting deadlocked by politicians who are protecting their own interests, and it becomes a giant, counter-intuitive cluster---- that feels so futile because few politicians, if any, have the power or interest to keep their promises.

With the Sun Village, there was only one person looking out for their interests and safety, and it lead to the others believing they didn't have to try, which lead to weakness and passiveness. And just think, maybe Rayek didn't want to teach anyone else how to hunt because he thought it would have lessened his purpose. Remember that line about the Sun Village having seventeen new protectors? He felt he was no longer needed, and he wanted very much to be needed, among other, more egotistical feelings.

That I can understand, sort of. My purpose in this life is to be a friend to whomever needs it, but my purpose has stagnated for years because I haven't been needed; my Real Life friends have drifted away to further their own lives, or just become incredibly busy. I can't tell how good it felt to finally have a chance to exercise my purpose again for my best friend/ex-boyfriend one evening. So without his purpose, Rayek felt his life needed new meaning. (Not that I'm excusing any of his horrifically bad choices.)

On another subject, I know what Two-Edge would do if Venka was harmed by one of his weapons: He'd go mad again, and work to destroy the humans he once helped. It makes me wonder who would be able to rein him in if Venka wasn't able to.

sulken

MultiFacets said: we keep getting deadlocked by politicians who are protecting their own interests, and it becomes a giant, counter-intuitive cluster

[rant]Politicians are supposed to only pursue their own self-interest, which -in most cases- is power. In democratic societies they acchieve this through getting (re-)elected, and for this they (should ideally) choose policies they constituency is interested in. This is why democracy is supposed to work [/rant off] sorry :)

manga

MultiFacets said: With the Sun Village, there was only one person looking out for their interests and safety, and it lead to the others believing they didn't have to try, which lead to weakness and passiveness. And just think, maybe Rayek didn't want to teach anyone else how to hunt because he thought it would have lessened his purpose. Remember that line about the Sun Village having seventeen new protectors? He felt he was no longer needed, and he wanted very much to be needed, among other, more egotistical feelings.


Right on the nose on all counts, I'd say.

Sunshade

MANGA, I adore Rayek. As I said above, "I'm ok loving problematic characters." "Love" being the operative word. The words of Wendy Pini in the Afterword of "Wolfrider!" can, I think, be applied to Rayek as well as to Bearclaw (another flawed EQ character I adore). I'd recently re-read them, and what she writes about her elves sometimes reflecting the -isms in us all is fresh in my mind and perhaps influencing my views. My favourite EQ moments are always when either Rayek or Bearclaw are featured. I feel no need for apologism when it comes to any of these characters, nor do I feel I need to redeem/defend them or my love for them. I know that's not everyone's approach, though--no worries. :bz

Cannot wait for Rayek to enter the scene again in his stretched bod! The reactions of the others will be magnificent.


manga

Sunshade, he won't be appearing in his stretched body. That happens 400 years later, unless Wendy kindly ret-forward-cons much of Rogue's Curse out of existence.

wingthing

Yeah... I hate retcons as a rule, but I could sure do without watching Rayek and Winnie have the same argument for 400 years. I mean, Winnowill is such a one-trick pony, maybe it it unrealistic for her to learn a new dance step, but surely the combined thought power of all the magic users of Abode could come up with a better solution than "let's let Rayek just stumble around for all eternity, recycling an eternal plot loop."

RedheadEmber

wingthing said: but surely the combined thought power of all the magic users of Abode could come up with a better solution than "let's let Rayek just stumble around for all eternity, recycling an eternal plot loop."


If they leave in the Palace (or at least some of them) then Rayek might elect to stay for much of the same reasons he chose to leave in the first place; to keep everyone else away from the danger that is Winnowill.

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: If they leave in the Palace (or at least some of them) then Rayek might elect to stay for much of the same reasons he chose to leave in the first place; to keep everyone else away from the danger that is Winnowill.


Yep! Although- one has to wonder, then, why there is no sign of him in the jink stories.

BTW- question. What are Jink's powers? She can shapeshift and heal.... Can she fly?

Elwing

well, there is this "Father of Memory"...But wasn't that supposed to be Aurek?

manga

RedheadEmber said: If they leave in the Palace (or at least some of them) then Rayek might elect to stay for much of the same reasons he chose to leave in the first place; to keep everyone else away from the danger that is Winnowill.


Wingthing and I are hoping that Something will be done about Winnie so he doesn't have to. I mean, in later "Rogue's Curse" they claimed that the shard of the Palace itself barred her from entering it because she didn't love, which just drives me bonkers because then there's no chance of her "infecting the Palace" and Rayek's self-exile is pointless. Arrgh.

lunakat said: Yep! Although- one has to wonder, then, why there is no sign of him in the jink stories.


Not really. The world is pretty big and there were only a couple of Jink stories. Easy to miss Rayek, Ekuar and Winnie when those stories covered the entire star system!

Mkal

Thornbrake said: I think it's pretty safe to assume that all of Rayek's "buckles" are cloth or leather


I would say it was leather, too.

Zeina

Wingthing and I are hoping that Something will be done about Winnie so he doesn't have to. I mean, in later "Rogue's Curse" they claimed that the shard of the Palace itself barred her from entering it because she didn't love, which just drives me bonkers because then there's no chance of her "infecting the Palace" and Rayek's self-exile is pointless. Arrgh.



Yeah, I've never understood it either. If Winnie is barred from entering the Palace, then why on earth would Rayek not be there? Wouldn't it be easier to live there, even while still holding her soul within him, wouldn't it make more sense to be in the Palace and draw strength from it? I just don't get it, and the whole thing is vague.

Is it that Winnie is also made more powerful by the Palace and that's what they don't want to deal with? Somebody please explain this to me because I feel like I just don't get Rayek's endless exile :-??

lunakat

Yeah.. the Father of Memory is Aurek.

Spoiler for FutureQuest



manga said: Wingthing and I are hoping that Something will be done about Winnie so he doesn't have to.

She's gotta be that dark energy in the remains of Blue Mountain- right?






End Spoiler




manga said: mean, in later "Rogue's Curse" they claimed that the shard of the Palace itself barred her from entering it because she didn't love, which just drives me bonkers because then there's no chance of her "infecting the Palace" and Rayek's self-exile is pointless. Arrgh.

Yep. i think that was one of those lovey-dovey, feel good, made up on the spot, plot points that don't fit with anything said previously. I think when Winnie dies... or maybe sometime thereafter... there is some mention in the narration of the fact that the palace is neutral and bends to the will of whoever is using it.

I think that, eventually, a bunch of living elves should be able to counteract the influence of one bad, frustrated dead elf. I mean.. there are a lot of them and only one of her- and the sun folk are all training with Skywise and Sunstream to master the Palace to a degree. Sunstream seems to be the mental internet, and Skywise is the pilot- and they are both the most accomplished, next to Timmain.. but the SunFolk, including Savah and Sun Toucher, are learning stuff too. I bet they figure out what to do with Winnie eventually. Maybe 500 years from now.

Knightbird

lunakat said: BTW- question. What are Jink's powers? She can shapeshift and heal.... Can she fly?


She teleports in small jumps. POP!

lunakat

What other elf has ever been able to do anything like that?

Knightbird

None, that I know of.

Llannen

MultiFacets said: On another subject, I know what Two-Edge would do if Venka was harmed by one of his weapons: He'd go mad again, and work to destroy the humans he once helped. It makes me wonder who would be able to rein him in if Venka wasn't able to.


Assuming he isn't mad still? I'm intrigued to find out.

And you guys talking about Jink made me have a crazy thought-Jink is Rayek/Winnowill?? Shape shifted and evolved? More than likely not but the thoughts that fly through my head!

Rayek-he seemed so one track bad boy for most of the story but unlike Winnowill, he evolved and learned from his mistakes and I have to say, he has the most grudging respect from me. His self imposed exile kind of bought him some forgiveness points for the wrongs he did in the past.

RedheadEmber

Llannen said: Rayek-he seemed so one track bad boy for most of the story but unlike Winnowill, he evolved and learned from his mistakes and I have to say, he has the most grudging respect from me. His self imposed exile kind of bought him some forgiveness points for the wrongs he did in the past.


I'd say the only time he was a direct "bad guy" was when he stole away Cutter's Family and then towards Leetah acted as it was no big deal that her lifemate was most likely dead.
During the Challenge he was in oposition to Cutter, yes, but more as the Rival rather than a direct baddie.
During the First War he fighting on the good guys' side.

lunakat

RedheadEmber said: I'd say the only time he was a direct "bad guy" was when he stole away Cutter's Family and then towards Leetah acted as it was no big deal that her lifemate was most likely dead.


Also when he tried to kill the GoBacks. (GoBack lives matter!)

RedheadEmber said: During the Challenge he was in oposition to Cutter, yes, but more as the Rival rather than a direct baddie.
During the First War he fighting on the good guys' side.

agree

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: Also when he tried to kill the GoBacks. (GoBack lives matter!)


DOH! Forgot about that... probably his most direct "bad guy" act. Not so much the attacing them - which I guess could, at least partly, be explained by his drunk-on-powerness with the glider souls - but the fact that afterwards he seemed completely uncaring that he'd potentially killed Kahvi.

lunakat

He didn't show remorse for that, ever. He showed remorse for almost having killed his own kid... but not for what he did to the rest of them. I have always had a problem with that.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: He showed remorse for almost having killed his own kid...


Actually, he didn't show any remorse for almost killing his own kid either, because as far as he knew the kid was already dead, and not his anyway.

Unless you mean afterwards when Venka had already introduced herself to him.

lunakat

Yeah- I meant afterward. He didn't care if he'd killed someone else's kid.

The biggest problem with Rayek, for me, was that he was basically sort of... racist against the GoBacks. I never saw him change that way of thinking. Even when Venka tells him about her dream- rising above the GoBacks and the Sunfolk, she has to stop him before he goes off on a tangent about how superior she is to the rest of them. Particularly the Go Backs. It's ironic that his daughter ended up choosing to lead the tribe he most despised. And that she is half them and half him.

RedheadEmber

lunakat said: It's ironic that his daughter ended up choosing to lead the tribe he most despised. And that she is half them and half him.


Well... I'd say it's pretty ironic that Kahvi and Rayek had a kid as calm as Venka. That they had a kid isn't that ironic - they were attracted to each other at first, not to mention that Kahvi wanted to have a kid with Rayek and she seems to have her way of that - but that the kid ended up being like Venka?

As it was put during Shard's 16:

Rayek and Kahvi... what a heritage! Only the unusual could come of it.


Or TV tropes:

Rayek and Kahvi. Their daughter should have been a thermonuclear bomb, but she turns out to be a serene mystic. Go figure...

wingthing

I would love to see Venka go thermonuclear. I bet she could like... melt people with her stare if it came to it.

I have no clue what "it" would be, of course, since Winnie's most evil machinations never did more than make her mildly huffy. And she basically stared down the possible end of the world without blinking. Still... a Venka temper tantrum would be priceless. And terrifying.

manga

Arrgh. Can't quit properly on the phone. Anyway, Lunakat, I wonder if part of why he hasn't said anything is because it hasn't fitted in with the story arc. I wonder if perhaps something will be done or said when he meets up with Venka again, since she's likely to be trailing Gobacks and it's been shown they remember their grudge against him.

lunakat

I'm pretty sure the Go Backs he affected would all be long dead now, and that event faded into the fog of myth

manga

I'd've thought so too but the preview pages show a Goback saying "Why not? She kept Rayek from wiping us off the face of the world." Veka doesn't seem the type to have brought that up on her own so assume it's the Goback's own memory. In 10,000 years, I'd think it'd be lost or more fuzzed. And besides, Khavi lasted to within a human lifetime of the events of "Final Quest," so it's not that much of a stretch that some others might be around.

And there's always the Palace; he'd surely have a chance to apologize to the spirits there. If he can get close enough. Again, though, I have doubts that it's part of Wendy's planned narrative.

wingthing

manga said: I'd've thought so too but the preview pages show a Goback saying "Why not? She kept Rayek from wiping us off the face of the world." Veka doesn't seem the type to have brought that up on her own so assume it's the Goback's own memory.


I was really wondering about that. (Also a wee bit disappointed that Venka allows her tribe to refer to their chieftess's father as a "snot-bag", but that's another matter.)

By "wiping off the face of the earth" I assume they mean the Palace Time Debacle, since baby Venka had nothing to do with stopping Rayek banishing the Go-Backs from the Palace and trying to kill Kahvi. But they couldn't have remembered that unless Kahvi specifically told them about Rayek's master plan and her hopes that Venka would stop him AND someone remembers her telling them that. There was a line at the end of Shards that suggested most if not all of the Go-Backs were young'uns, comparatively speaking. That Kahvi was more a myth than another else. Did the Tale of the Child Who Will Hopefully Take Down Rayek In the Far Future get passed down at the fireside as well?

If not... that means either Venka, Aroree or Two-Edge blabbed to the Go-Backs about the whole resolution to the KoBW. My money is on Two-Edge.

... now I'm not saying Venka should go thermonuclear over the "snot bag" line. But would it have killed her to turn a death glare at that Go-Back and said "Language" in her best "teacher voice"?

Knightbird

wingthing said: ... now I'm not saying Venka should go thermonuclear over the "snot bag" line. But would it have killed her to turn a death glare at that Go-Back and said "Language" in her best "teacher voice"?


She is allowing them to have their own opinions. A mark of a good leader.

lunakat

I had forgotten about that line!

It's possible that Kahvi told them something about how Venka was supposed to stop Rayek- and that Venka then filled in the story for them. That would make sense.

There's every reason for them to ask- and no reason for her not to tell. If you saw your legend come to life- you might ask it the details of its adventures.

wingthing

Knightbird said: She is allowing them to have their own opinions. A mark of a good leader


I'd like to see someone try to call Bearclaw "snot-bag" in front of Cutter.

No, really, I want to see that. I would pay obscene amounts of money to see that.

RedheadEmber

I don't think there are any of the Go-Backs who was there when Rayek went crazy on the lodge still alive. In Shards 16 there was a line saying something like "All the Go-Backs Krim and Yun knew lived and died during the Wolfriders' long sleep."

travelbug

The stories can still live, even if the go-backs Krim and Yun knew lived and died during the long sleep. They may have a storyteller to remember all the old tales (we havent really seen one, but we know much less about the Gobacks, than we know about Wolfriders)

manga

Well, even if all the personally affected Go-Backs are gone, there's still worth in an apology. Or else there wouldn't be so much push for the US government to apologize and make reparations for slavery or the Canadian government to apologize for the terrible treatment of the First Nations peoples.

lunakat

That's a good point, Manga. And considering that Rayek is going to meet up with Venka at some point- if the teaser trailer was any indication- perhaps we will get that moment.

lunakat

I think that moment would redeem Rayek for me. It's pretty much the one thing missing. But it's a major thing.

RedheadEmber

I'm not so sure it's the attacking the lodge moment that Go-Back is referring to so much as the whole making it so that the High Ones will never crash back in time in the first place, causing all those born as a result of that event to never have been born.

lunakat

@Redhead- That's a big deal too... I thought he might have apologized for it at some point... if not in words, at least through the action of taking in Winnowil's spirit. But you might be right. He expressed remorse for how he affected Cutter- after Cutter sent his emotions directly into Rayek's head... but I guess he never really acknowledged how bad it is to wipe out your entire race and all your ancestors...

Not to mention, he should probably have gotten the collective consent of the living elves he knew before "collecting" them to rescue the High Ones. Assuming a bunch of people are just going to rush to join you with no explanation and no discussion first- because it has to happen right now if it's going to happen at all without killing them- is sort of a big "if".

lunakat

Rayek is an odd duck. You have to wonder how he can be so accomplished, and apparently, so smart... and yet so obtuse at the same time.

The Go Back business always bothered me, in particular, because of his obvious prejudice against them. And that doesn't seem to go away. When he is talking with Venka in the palace, during Dreamtime, he expresses disdain for them. He also seems to suddenly realize that he almost killed his daughter... and expresses remorse for that. But he doesn't express remorse for almost killing every other kid the Go Backs had... or for destroying their communal home and driving them away from their ancestral right (the Palace) that they fought alongside him for.

I can actually buy that Rayek might have been crazy with the cry when he blasted into the future. I can also buy that he may not have truly comprehended the scope of what he was about to do to everyone. But it's so obvious and direct what he did to the Go Backs. It's so clear and overt- how can he fail to know that it was wrong? Unless he continues to see himself as superior to them- which, granted, I think he does.

I just want to see Rayek stop being a racist. I would love to see him grow out of that. Until he does, he hasn't changed. He hasn't gotten more humble or less of a jerk- he's just taken on a bigger challenge and more difficult responsibility.

I could be very off base here- but I think doing something that will, incidentally, carelessly kill everyone- but that you are willing to do because you just feel the larger interest is more important than individual lives... is a little different conceptually than targeting one group of people because you don't like them.

The first is sort of... BP and the Gulf oil spill... or fracking... or outsourcing and destroying a community... or putting some toxic industrial plant next to a town with little kids in it and giving them all birth defects and cancer. It's not personal- it's business. The second is like Hitler. Or General Krstić. It's more like genocide. I wanted to add that it's like all the times people of European ancestry drove other people off their lands.. but even that, I think, was primarily business. It was a bloody business- but it was specifically to get something. It wasn't just because we don't like you.

Everybody in the world was going to be a casualty of Rayek's vision to save the High Ones- but that wasn't personal. That was just an unfortunate byproduct he didn't really care or think about. The GoBack thing was personal and specific. I think that's what bugs me about it.

I just wanted him to be a better person than that. Than any of that.

But if he isn't... then having Rayek back in the palace could be as unpredictable and dangerous as having Winnowil there. And she really is Hitler.

He's a conundrum. Was he just misguided and is he really a hero? Or is he "Winnowil light"?

lunakat

Or maybe there's something wrong with me... because I'm basically arguing that casual callousness is somehow better than targeted hatred. Is it?

wingthing

Rayek would probably still say he had legitimate reasons for assaulting the Go-Backs. From his POV: Kahvi had betrayed him, the Go Backs had lost Ekuar thus proving themselves incompetent and unworthy, and as Master of the Palace it was ultimately his call to ban the Go-Backs from the Palace.

Ask him today, and I can see him admit he was wrong about being the sole Master of the Palace. But I suspect he'd still say "I'll apologize for overreacting when Kahvi's spirit apologizes for lying about Venka and not keeping Ekuar on his old-man-leash - no, Ekuar, I don't need to hear your side of the story! I know what happened! And part of aging gracefully means you accept that you do need a leash now and then."

Elwing

I think pulling the racism card is a bit strong and not helpful as there is never any mention of race. And as for the Go-Backs being an incompetent numb-skulled lot with a selfish, brash leader, he has a bit of a point there. But this is a matter of culture and not race.
Of course, this does not justify the danger he put them in.
But I hope we get to see how they do under Venka's leadership...She seems like somebody who might rule with a bit more insight and a bit less violence.

manga

But even Winnie wasn't always "Winno-wicked," and in theory doesn't always have to be.

I don't know. Rayek comes from a culture with very high regard for life. We know he can be compassionate: remember his response to Venka's "death" was immediately to seek to comfort Khavi, the one who had truly lost a child and not just the possibility of one. It's after that that that he starts having issues with the Gobacks. (Is "prejudice" the right term when he's lived with them for more than a decade? He's judging them based on direct experience after all, even if he's being a jerk about it.)

The way I've always read that scene is he deliberately destroyed the lodge but made sure the Gobacks got out. Except Kahiv, obviously... No wait, Khaki's second-in-command was in there too. Sigh.

Well, something else I've always considered a factor is the pressure of all the Gliders in his head. We know they overrode him to restore the Palace. Maybe the pressure magnified impulses that would otherwise have been scotched. And maybe there just hasn't been narrative space for it in the overall story.

lunakat

He always talks about how inferior he thinks the GoBacks are. Okay- tribe ism then- but it's the same kind of thing. And no, he didn't make sure everyone got out. At least three people were left inside.

The fact that some of us think that Rayek would probably still consider his assault on the Go Backs justified is sort of the problem with his character. Being betrayed by Kahvi or the fact that the GoBacks didn't successfully protect Ekuar are not justifications for exhiling their people, destroying their homes, risking killing them (including children), and being willing to wipe their entire people off te face of existence.

You can't just go kill her entire family and burn their house down because you are mad at your ex. It's not cool. Does he still think that was okay? And if so, where does that leave his character in terms of development?

Zeina

I think he's not really a hero so much an idealist and a visionary. I don't think he's Winnowill Lite. Winnowill wasn't about to go through suffering or have any kind of compassion - she wouldn't have helped Ekuar or had any kind of sense of emotional responsibility. It's true that Rayek has some selfish parts and has messed up, but his anger has always been more reactionary, he's not that calculating with the whole, I will do what I want to do and get around the feelings of others by lying and pretending...that;'s the way Winnowill does it. She is aware of the feelings of others and does it anyway...Rayek didn't have that awareness for a long time...he was just reactionary. Which also made him easier to manipulate by Winnie.

I think he was always contemptuous about the Go Backs and even the Wolfriders and some of the Sun Folk due to his own nature of feeling like an outsider. He didn't see himself as racist or whatever. His intentions were good originally, but you know that whole saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. It's obviously not right. And obviously he messed up, big time. I feel he does realize that. He's suffering for it in a lot of ways.

But speaking of Winnowill in writing this post makes me realize how much I really am disappointed in her character. She's so 1-dimensional. She's always the source of all evil. It's gotten a bit old and stale. The whole mustache / hair twirling dark-haired villain teeming with shades of Maleficent is dull. Her whole thing of being a healer turned inside-out was and is fascinating. But the problem is she has no internal struggle anymore. She's just cardboard cutout evil and it's gotten boring.

Thornbrake

lunakat said: Rayek is an odd duck. You have to wonder how he can be so accomplished, and apparently, so smart... and yet so obtuse at the same time.... He's a conundrum. Was he just misguided and is he really a hero? Or is he "Winnowil light"?


I think I need to just delete his character profile and paste this in, lol. But honestly that's what makes him a fascinating character.

Thornbrake

Zeina said: But speaking of Winnowill in writing this post makes me realize how much I really am disappointed in her character. She's so 1-dimensional. She's always the source of all evil. It's gotten a bit old and stale. The whole mustache / hair twirling dark-haired villain teeming with shades of Maleficent is dull. Her whole thing of being a healer turned inside-out was and is fascinating. But the problem is she has no internal struggle anymore. She's just cardboard cutout evil and it's gotten boring.


I completely disagree with this. I think it's easy to say, but a careful reading of the story doesn't bear it out. She has some deeply significant things to say at the end of Kings of the Broken Wheel and throughout the Shards storyline that clearly show evolution and complexity in the WHY of how she has chosen to be. Winnowill is many things, but one-dimensional is not one of them. (Disclaimer: I'm not counting the bulk of the Rogue's Curse storyline as written by Brandon McKinney in the above.)

jeb

Wingthing and I are hoping that Something will be done about Winnie so he doesn't have to. I mean, in later "Rogue's Curse" they claimed that the shard of the Palace itself barred her from entering it because she didn't love, which just drives me bonkers because then there's no chance of her "infecting the Palace" and Rayek's self-exile is pointless. Arrgh.


Doesn't that make more sense with Rayek's exile? Seems like the palace would be the safest place for her spirit to be, as there are lots of spirits there that could control her, plus the spirits there seem to lose their care about the physical world.

If she couldn't go in the palace, then it would make sense that something would be needed to contain her spirit so it doesn't mess with the elves or humans outside the palace. I can't really remember, but didn't she take control of Rayek's body for a while and start some kind of cult devoted to the destruction of elves? Not a spirit you would want out and able to take over a weak minded host.

sulken

Wasn't there a Rogue's Curse episode, when Winnowill entraps the spirits of some creatures and actually pats (the spirit of) a cat (or something like that) like your typical Bond villain?

I also didn't like the part with Winnie aborting the children of the Gliders she first helped to create. Yearning for children seems so 'Sunfolksy' and rather less 'Glideresk'.

And why should "to love" be a requirement for entering the palace in spirit form (it certainly didn't hinder her from entering while still alive)? Shouldn't it also specify which kind of love? Winnowill probably loves power.

RedheadEmber

Actually, I'm going to rephrase my previous post. I don't merely think the Go-Back in the issue 7 preview was referring to the time-travel-thing, I am 100 % sure of it.
After all; he said that "She [Venka] kept Rayek from wiping(sp?) us off the face of the earth." Venka, as an infant, didn't have any influence on Rayek not actually killing anybody when he attacked the Lodge.

BTW, am I the only one who finds it slightly odd that we in the issue 8 thread are having a discussion about Rayek partly by referring to the issue 7 preview?

Zeina

I completely disagree with this. I think it's easy to say, but a careful reading of the story doesn't bear it out. She has some deeply significant things to say at the end of Kings of the Broken Wheel and throughout the Shards storyline that clearly show evolution and complexity in the WHY of how she has chosen to be. Winnowill is many things, but one-dimensional is not one of them. (Disclaimer: I'm not counting the bulk of the Rogue's Curse storyline as written by Brandon McKinney in the above.)


I was actually referring specifically to Rogue's Curse, and the traces of her presence amidst Ember's tribe when they meet the shape changed creatures. That, for me, is when Winnowill became completely cardboard...anything 'bad' and creepy magically is instantly Winnie.
Before that, in the earlier stories, with the problems of being a healer who couldn't even heal anymore...that was, as I said before, fascinating.
Not so sure about Shards. I feel a bit divided about it.

It would be kind of awesome if she had her own backstory graphic novel, like Khavi.

lunakat

sulken said: I also didn't like the part with Winnie aborting the children of the Gliders she first helped to create. Yearning for children seems so 'Sunfolksy' and rather less 'Glideresk'.


I agree. This seemed like a cheap shot to me.

sulken said: And why should "to love" be a requirement for entering the palace in spirit form (it certainly didn't hinder her from entering while still alive)? Shouldn't it also specify which kind of love? Winnowill probably loves power.


Again- a cheap shot, plotwise. It doesn't make any sense in terms of what we have learned previously about the Palace and the elves- and it's too touchy feeling warm and fuzzy deus ex machina explanationy. It's the kind of explanation you should find in Rainbow Bright or the Care Bears- not in any story that anyone over twelve is supposed to read. Except, maybe, "The Bridges of Madison County"- an Oprah book of the month that may have been one of the worst written things that decade.

I loved what Savah said to Suntop when they were mental prisoners of Winnowil. I loved the whole exploration of Winnowil's version of love in relation to Voll. I love most of what Elfquest has had to say about love- because it has been heartfelt, but not simplistic. I hate the idea that, without love, you can't get into the Palace- because that's just dumb.

Aside from the fact that it really does completely invalidate Rayek's sacrifice- no matter how you try to rationalize it... it's just dumb.

manga

Responding to your earlier comment about Rayek possibly still feeling validated in his attack on the Gobacks, Lunakat: I don't think he does. "Is there no end to my errors?" shows awareness of magnitude. One large screw-up, though it is certainly an impressive doozy, does not lead one to despair like that. And keep in mind that this moment came before Cutter showed him just what it was like to lose his family.

In that same story, Venka said that his hatred of Khavi and the Gobacks was "...odd. So odd!" Us fans may be missing the implication of just how recently this all happened to him in the same way he underestimated Cutter just before The Big Fight. To Rayek this all happened very recently. Even if we figure that at the point he was talking with Venka it's been a few weeks or months, the elves feel time differently. The Gliders referred to Windkin as a "newborn" when by our measure he was a toddler; clearly a year doesn't mean much! And it has been less than a year since A) Khavi kidnapped his daughter ("child-thief!" - wow, that thought seems ironic now, given the timing) and B) Ekuar was nearly re-enslaved because the Gobacks couldn't be bothered to keep him safe. ("Gobacks don't grow old if we can help it," Skot said. I wonder if they're the "put the old folks on an ice-flow" kind of society? Or, more likely, a "well, I'm useless to the tribe now, guess I'll go let that snowbear eat me" kind of society.)

None of this makes his actions right. But it's painful and probably still raw in his talk with Venka and possibly still throbbing by the end of "Shards." Perhaps by now he's ready but who knows how much emotional energy he's had for anything other than holding Winnowill in check lately.

Anyway, I, at least, see him as being capable of remorse over the mess.

RedheadEmber

manga said: ("Gobacks don't grow old if we can help it," Skot said. I wonder if they're the "put the old folks on an ice-flow" kind of society? Or, more likely, a "well, I'm useless to the tribe now, guess I'll go let that snowbear eat me" kind of society.)


Probably more like a getting-killed-by-trolls-before-even-reaching-old-age kind of society.

RichardPini

manga said: Sunshade, he won't be appearing in his stretched body. That happens 400 years later, unless Wendy kindly ret-forward-cons much of Rogue's Curse out of existence.


Not going to happen.

RichardPini

lunakat said:
BTW- question. What are Jink's powers? She can shapeshift and heal.... Can she fly?


She jinks! ;)

RichardPini

RedheadEmber said:

Well... I'd say it's pretty ironic that Kahvi and Rayek had a kid as calm as Venka.


Whether the "kid" that Kahvi and Rayek had was born or destined to be calm, will forever be a mystery. However, don't forget this:
Ekuar: "I know you. What will you do to him?"
Venka: "The Wolfriders finished my upbringing. They did not teach me to hate."

RichardPini

Thornbrake said: think I need to just delete his character profile and paste this in, lol. But honestly that's what makes him a fascinating character.


Personally, I think you should add stealth code into the Rayek profile that automatically switches on the viewer's webcam that inserts a photo of her/him into the character profile. Because as much as anything else, a character like Rayek provides a mirror - or perhaps "channel" is a better word - for the people reading and opining about him. Y'all are talking about Rayek, but we're learning about you. As Spock says, "Fascinating!" 8-X

RedheadEmber

RichardPini said: She jinks! ;)


But is it called "jinking" because Jink is one who does it, or is she called Jink (with the possibility that she has forgotten her actual name) because she "jinks"?

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