ELFQUEST
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Elfquest: Final Quest 9 (cover)

lunakat

RichardPini said: But that was never our intention in the creation and continuation of this long, long work.


Then what was the point and purpose of making a comic book that you yourselves have said was a metaphor for certain problems in society and the human condition?

You were just like "oh we will comment on this but say nothing and try to influence no one with our perhaps-not-opinions, which we will keep completely neutral to that end?" I don't believe that.

travelbug

As a true european, I think the line about making Ruffel taller and paler is there to make a point about the power of the palace. Nothing more.

I dont think Wendy and Richard intend to turn the elves back into pale coneheads.
Ever onward, not backwards.



RichardPini

lunakat said: Then what was the point and purpose of making a comic book that you yourselves have said was a metaphor for certain problems in society and the human condition?


Elfquest is and has always been a metaphor for our perception of certain problems, no more and no less. If somehow for all these years you've interpreted our comment to mean that we think we can possibly speak on behalf of everyone else in the world, there's nothing I can say to that.

lunakat said: You were just like "oh we will comment on this but say nothing and try to influence no one with our perhaps-not-opinions, which we will keep completely neutral to that end?" I don't believe that.


What you choose to believe or don't believe is entirely up to you. It has no basis in what we're doing, only in your completely subjective perception of same. Frankly, I don't know why you're still reading our story at this point, given what seems a great dissatisfaction with much of what we're doing and how we're doing it. It can't be because you respect us as people and/or creators, not when you feel entitled to make snarky comments. So why are you still here?

RedheadEmber

Kathleen2point0 said: And it's not awkward in the story. They have an entire conversation based on that line, a conversation that would have made just as much sense, and not had the negative connotations, if it were only about Ruffel getting taller.


But that's the thing; I honestly think the conversation was - if not 100% only about Ruffel getting taller, then at least mostly about that.
From Suntoucher comparing the (short) Sunfolk to Skywise, who is already pale, and saying they'll become like Savah, who is darkskinned.
To Ruffel saying Skywise oughta hurry up and change too, ie; get taller.


Kathleen2point0 said: It's one line and an entire history, spanning back centuries, all over the world, wherein people with lighter skin, even in POC communities, are privileged over people with darker skin.


In our world, not the elves' world. At least not among the elves, I don't know how the humans on abode are about skin colour.


Weaver said: I guess this is what happens when the cover isn't broken up into multiple vignettes, less speculation on the story and more nitty gritty analysis over wording from issues WAaaay past.


I've been wondering about this too. Like, ehm... why didn't we discuss this in the thread for the Special? Guess everyone was still too upset about Ruffel dying to worry about her getting paler.


Weaver said: Maybe that's simply why Two-edge partnered with the misfit trolls, to keep Venka on Abode with him.


Actually, we don't know for sure who Two-Edge will make that alliance with.




About the skin colours thing; am I the only one who think it would be really cool if all the elves just went the "Wavedancer way" - so to speak - and just had skin off kinds of colours?

travelbug

All will (hopefully) make sense when we get to the end of Final Quest :)

I think Reef has a very nice skincolor, by the way :)

Leanan

RedheadEmber said: About the skin colours thing; am I the only one who think it would be really cool if all the elves just went the "Wavedancer way" - so to speak - and just had skin off kinds of colours?


That'd be awesome! :D



Green Skywise agrees!
=P~

lunakat

RichardPini said: Elfquest is and has always been a metaphor for our perception of certain problems, no more and no less.


When you write a piece of literature and you use a metaphor to talk about something like, say, prejudice or domestic abuse or whatever- you aren't doing it in a vacuum, and you can't help but be making a commentary on the subject you are addressing. You make a commentary by how you handle the metaphor in the story. And that has an influence on how the reader perceives and understands whatever issue you are addressing- unless that reader doesn't really care about your product and/or pays no attention to it.

In the dialogue between Structuralism, Post-structuralism and New Criticism, there emerged a notion that I rather agree with that any work you create- literary, visual or other, has three lives and meanings. First, there is the intention you had as an author in creating the work- you create it with your own meaning and intention. Then, there it is the work itself- a physical object. But once you release the work into the world- in the form of publication or by any other means- it takes on a third meaning in the interpretation by the reader. And it also becomes part of a long dialogue of artistic, critical and/or literary works interacting with each other and forming human culture. And then... yeah, if you made something bad-ass enough it ends up in the collections of the University of Columbia.

If you happen to be getting a similar reaction from a number of people to a line or element in your story- then that element has a significance, whether you meant it to or not. It may not be what you intended- but it exists, and people are going to react to it- whether you argue your reader's right to address it or not.



RichardPini said: If somehow for all these years you've interpreted our comment to mean that we think we can possibly speak on behalf of everyone else in the world, there's nothing I can say to that.


That's what is called a logical fallacy. Making a comment on something through a work of creativity is not the same as speaking for everyone else in the world. That's a deductive fallacy.


RichardPini said: What you choose to believe or don't believe is entirely up to you. It has no basis in what we're doing, only in your completely subjective perception of same.


Of course. Everyone's interpretation is subjective. Interpretation, by its very nature, is subjective.


RichardPini said: Frankly, I don't know why you're still reading our story at this point, given what seems a great dissatisfaction with much of what we're doing and how we're doing it.


I have a lot of respect for your wife's amazing talent as an artist and storyteller. It's interesting that you consider a criticism of one aspect of your story to mean I just don't like anything about the rest of it. Have you ever been to a movie where you came a way generally liking a lot of things about it, but felt there was some part that you felt didn't fit? Or do you think that if you are going to like a work of art, literature, film or whatever- that you are required to like it completely, absolutely, unquestioningly and/or without any critical opinion of any aspect of it? If not, then how are you asking this question- because the answer should be self evident.


RichardPini said: It can't be because you respect us as people and/or creators, not when you feel entitled to make snarky comments. So why are you still here?


I didn't realize you had the monopoly on snarky comments.

First of all, expressing a criticism about one aspect of a work of creativity you guys produced does not mean I don't respect you as people or creators. Disagreeing with you about something you say does mean I don't respect you as a person or as a creator. And it doesn't mean I don't respect your work.

"Jane Eyre" was one of my favorite books for most of my life. I read it when I was twelve, fifteen and when i was in college. I read it for a class on women in literature and read it for a class on Gothic romance and psychological literature. But I also read it in a class on post-colonialism, along with "Wide Sargasso Sea." I love it to death, and I think it's a brilliant book. But I can also view it critically at the same time. I imagine Jean Rhys must have loved it it too, to have written "Wide Sargasso Sea" in response. Otherwise, how could she have found herself so affected/inspired by one character, and why would she bother?

I'm going to throw back some questions to you. Why open a forum if you don't want feedback? Why highlight a topic and say "discuss" if you don't want a real discussion? And are you really so insecure that you can't handle this small bit of criticism about what you've created from people who are clearly longtime fans? Do you really think that people aren't "entitled" to have a discussion on a forum created for the purpose of discussion about a published work?

I guess I don't have to be here. I don't have a problem not being here if you would prefer that. Is that what you are saying? I'm sure everyone would get along perfectly well without me. I know I wouldn't be missed much, and even forgotten after a while. That's just how these things work. It's been a long time that I've been hanging out here. I was a kid when I started making comments- and now I've grown up. Maybe you have a point, and it's time to move on.

lunakat

Leanan said: Green Skywise agrees!


Green Skywise is swell! (According to Oddbit. Picknose disagrees vehemently.)

RichardPini

lunakat said: I'm going to throw back a question to you. Why open a forum if you don't want feedback? Why highlight a topic and say "discuss" if you don't want a real discussion? And are you really so insecure that you can't handle any bit of criticism about what you've created from people who are clearly longtime fans? Do you really think that people aren't "entitled" to have a discussion on a forum created for the purpose of discussion about a published work?


Feedback is fine. Discussion is fine. Presumption of others' motives ("...are you really so insecure that you can't handle...") is not fine. It's disrespectful. It's as simple as that. You demonstrate - apart from your obvious intelligence - the willingness to use ad hominem argument (massive logical no-no) against me. (Besides, if I were insecure, I might be bothered by what I'd perceive as your own sexism, overtly admitting respect only for Wendy's creative talents, merely implying my contributions to the plot and story for the sake of your argument by referring ambiguously to "your story" elsewhere.) I'm not insecure; I simply dislike bad manners. You said

lunakat said: In the dialogue between Structuralism, Post-structuralism and New Criticism, there emerged a notion that I rather agree with that any work you create- literary, visual or other, has three lives and meanings.


All well and good. By your own words, it's a notion you agree with. We don't agree with it.

lunakat said: If you happen to be getting a similar reaction from a number of people to a line or element in your story- then that element has a significance, whether you meant it to or not.


The only similar reaction we're getting is from 2-3 other people here in this forum thread. That hardly constitutes significance.

lunakat said: It may not be what you intended- but it exists, and people are going to react to it- whether you argue your reader's right to address it or not.


I do not argue any reader's right to address this. You agree with a certain intellectual notion. Fine. You apply that notion to your assessment of Elfquest. Fine. You then argue that if a number of people agree, the element in question has significance. Not fine. I've already pointed out that the number is quite small. What's unacceptable, logically as well as civilly, is the repeated contention - implicit or explicit - that Wendy and I are somehow wrongheaded because we do not subscribe to your pet notion, that we are blind if we don't see its universal application. Not in so many words, I have said "We do not agree with you." You have not replied, "OK, let's agree to disagree and move on." You have countered "Why don't you agree with me?" Because we don't, period, end of report. Are we obligated to?

Do you need to be in the right about this? If so, live and be well. My involvement is done. Andre Gide, in "The Immoralist," has a great quote about being right, which sustains us. Whether you stay or go is up to you.

RedheadEmber

You could argue this entire discussion has been a commentation/metaphor for the colour-issue.
For the elves skin colour doesn't matter, so Skywise didn't know he was saying anything that might offend someone when he made that comment about Ruffel maybe getting a bit paler. However, he of course couldn't know that everything (or almost everything) he says and does is being read about by some silly humans on a faraway planet.
It's kinda the same thing that happened with the Orgy back in the OQ; the elves didn't know their sexual eskapades would be watched by some silly humans on that faraway planet. (BTW @Thornbrake, think you and Ryan have forgotten to mention the orgy in your last few podcasts.)

lunakat

Wow. I never said most of that. And regarding said ad hominem- no more comment. I apologize if you were offended.

I'm bowing out too. Goodbye everybody.

manga

This whole argument has made me so very sad. Here just a few weeks ago we had a young person on Facebook mock Wendy's art and get lovingly educated by everyone's responses. She even changed her opinion and apologized publicly. It was held up as an example of how wonderful the "Elfquest" fandom can be. It made me proud and reminded me how much I have loved "Elfquest" and our fan community over the years.

As Kathleen2.0 said, "Elfquest" is beloved for its openness and inclusiveness, both the messages perceived in the comics themselves and the community.

I hope that Richard's flat-out "if you don't like it, why are you here?" is just an example of the extra-orneriness he warned us about here. Our beloved Elf-mom and Elf-pop are just as human as the rest of us, after all. *edited to add: And, manifestly, dealing with us rabid-and-obsessed types isn't always fun and games.

Edited to add:
I'm sure it is frustrating to feel that people are telling you what you should and shouldn't write and I'm sorry Richard felt that way. But I'd hope that any creator would at least pause when people - especially people who have loved and supported their work for many years, as in this case - say they are concerned or hurt by something.

I'd just hope that the same creative couple who is adding a same-sex pairing because they feel that it is something they "should" do would understand where we're coming from when we say we don't think they "should" whiten the cast.

Leanan

RichardPini said: It would be very nice if humans could "send" like the elves


I wonder how much of this discussion could have been avoided if that was indeed the case!

RedheadEmber

manga said: This whole argument has made me so very sad.


Me too. Like I already said; I just don't see why that one line should matter so much. Yes; skincolour matters to humans here on Earth, but the elves aren't humans and they aren't on Earth.












I'm gonna get killed for saying this but... Ruffel was pretty darkskinned in the end... ~:(

manga

RedheadEmber said: Me too. Like I already said; I just don't see why that one line should matter so much.


I see where you're coming from but calling it "only one line" misses the mark about communication. If it's not relevant, why did you spend time and space saying it? Especially in a sci-fi or fantasy setting where you have to do major world-building to share with your readers this new world and culture.

RedheadEmber

manga said: I see where you're coming from but calling it "only one line" misses the mark about communication. If it's not relevant, why did you spend time and space saying it? Especially in a sci-fi or fantasy setting where you have to do major world-building to share with your readers this new world and culture.


It was only one line. Skywise told Ruffel she was looking taller, and maybe paler, Skywise, Ruffel and Sun-Toucher had a bit of a conversation about getting taller, and then Skywise and Ruffel went down to dance in a field of flowers and learned the hard way that, yeah; lightning is kinda dangerous!
It was said because that's what Skywise thought when he looked at Ruffel; "You look taller, and maybe a bit paler." And maybe the scene was also there to show readers that of the trio, Ruffel was the one Skywise had gotten attached to the most, and then ka-POOOOW!

Not every single line needs to be relevant. I don't think Shenshen old comment about Ember sprouting a tail has been that relevant.

Tam

RedheadEmber said: I'm gonna get killed for saying this but... Ruffel was pretty darkskinned in the end...


And yet had she lived, would she have grown paler and taller? That's the question. I'm glad that you don't think one line should matter, but some of us do think it matters. Before we lose any more forum members, I think it's probably best to just agree to disagree and move on.

RedheadEmber

Tam said: And yet had she lived, would she have grown paler and taller?


Taller, I'd say yes. I'm still not so sure about the paler (other than how Newstar went from being tanned when living in Sorrow's End to being pale now, only not-so-much because Ruffel's natural skin colour is dark.)

Of course in the end they'll all look like this



BTW, you do realise that I was talking at the very end.

Tam

RedheadEmber said: BTW, you do realise that I was talking at the very end.


Yes, I do realize that. Could we keep the snark at a minimum, please?

RedheadEmber

I wasn't being snarky. It was basically what just went into my (somewhat sick) mind; she got pretty darkskinned in the end.
Also, the fact that she died mean the entire conversation didn't really matter; she's dead! She'll never get taller (or paler).

Skincolour (or height) haven't been mentioned in the seven (or eight) issues since the Special, and I think the elves are gonna be a bit too busy to worry about it. What with Misfit Trolls and Angrif and Palace vs. The Way and everything.

*-:)

Now, let's look at it from the bright side; this little argument only lasted about 3 pages, the "Rayek War" over in the issue 8 thread got on for a lot longer.

Tam

Then I apologize for reading your comment that way. In the interest of not continuing the argument, I'm going to just leave it at that.

And yes, at least the argument wasn't as long as the one about Rayek...but I don't think we lost any forum members over it. :(

RedheadEmber

I don't think we've lost any forum members over this either. Yes, lunakat said she'd leave this conversation, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's gonna leave the entire forum.



So, what is gonna happen in issue #9?
We of course know that:
!Venka , the Go-Backs, and (I assume) :(( as well will fight the Misfit Trolls.
8-X will make his alliance.
\m/ will want to be part of the Palace magic, but will probably be kept from it by :!!
And Angrif will be a major pain in everyone's arses.

Here's something I really want to see happen:
I want to see Padki again! It would be so cool if he became one of the elves' allies.

Leanan

Don't forget Angrif's massive war fleet! That means action on the ocean. That means, very likely, we will see more of the Wavedancers, or so I'd hazard.

RedheadEmber

Leanan said: Don't forget Angrif's massive war fleet! That means action on the ocean. That means, very likely, we will see more of the Wavedancers, or so I'd hazard.


Well... I did write:



RedheadEmber said: And Angrif will be a major pain in everyone's arses.

Leanan

I saw you mentioned him, but you didn't mention the fleet, or the wavedancers...

RedheadEmber

Last time I checked the Wavedancers were counted among 'everyone'.

Leanan

...is there a curse on this topic that makes people argue all the time?? I was just trying to stay on the topic. !WhinyTier

Stefan

when i said discussions....

Be careful what you wish for.

Anyhooo, i wonder if Frodo shows up ;p

RedheadEmber

Leanan said: ...is there a curse on this topic that makes people argue all the time?? I was just trying to stay on the topic. !WhinyTier


I wasn't trying to argue. I just... meant that I was already mentioning the Wavedancer's because I said that Angrif would be a major pain in everyone's arses; land and sea dwelling people both.
In fact based on issue 4 it'll be the Wavedancer's he'll go after first, because after all; why would he else need a fleet?

I'm gonna make a bold prediction: The Wavedancers will defeat Angriff because he turns out he's not really that sea-strong. :-&

Leanan

RedheadEmber said: 'm gonna make a bold prediction: The Wavedancers will defeat Angriff because he turns out he's not really that sea-strong.


That'd serve him right!

Stefan said: Anyhooo, i wonder if Frodo shows up ;p


Who is Frodo? (I know of a Frodo, but he's a Hobbit and not likely to show up...)

RedheadEmber

I think Stefan was purposefully being silly.




Leanan said: That'd serve him right!


He'd be completely:

"Aaaah! Why did I kill Ardan? He's much more sea-strong than I am. Ooh... because he was crazy and I'm an evil bastard! That's why!"

Leanan

RedheadEmber said: I think Stefan was purposefully being silly.


Ah okay, I thought maybe it was a codename for one of the unnamed humans or something. 8->

RedheadEmber

If there's a short human with uncommonly large (hairy) feet, we should name him Frodo.

Eyeshigh

Well, Angrif is missing a piece... maybe it is the piece that made him seaworthy and he sinks to the bottom of the ocean? Thank you Krim!


Thank the High Ones for some lighthearted comments!

RedheadEmber

Eyeshigh said: Well, Angrif is missing a piece... maybe it is the piece that made him seaworthy and he sinks to the bottom of the ocean? Thank you Krim!


Now I don't think his balls were quite big enough to function as flotation devices.

---

I think we're all forgetting something very important:
The Go-Backs are fighting the Misfit Trolls.
Could it be... Go-Backs with guns?
It would certainly fit with Two-Edge's comment (from issue7) about being "full of surprises"
8-X : Here, maiden, just take these and...

ka-POOOUUUMMMM!!!

... tell your tribemates not to fire before they're facing the enemy.

Imagine a gun-tooting (is that how it's spelled?) Venka.
!Venka : I'm the boss here, and if anyone wanna argue then they can just, *shows huge gun* say 'hello' to my little friend!

sulken

RedheadEmber said: ... tell your tribemates not to fire before they're facing the enemy.

or to fire into their own faces...
>:)

TwoWolves

Absolute favourite cover so far for the Final Quest. Great artwork and colouring - nice work!!! I love Venka -she's a fav character of mine!
I really hope we see how the Go Backs have developed under her? As in Dreamtime and in the Kahvi series we see that maybe some of the Go Backs have embraced their Wolfrider heritage and also that there was a Young Go Back male called Trof who had some magical abilities - is he still around maybe? Or do they now have some budding magic users now? Fire Making would be good! 8-X

Thornbrake

RedheadEmber said: Could it be... Go-Backs with guns?


Haha, if THAT actually happens Ryan and I need to get some sort of precognition award for coming up with the idea in the ElfQuest Show podcast!

Tavie

RichardPini said: Or is the question actually, "is it necessary that this aspect of change happen at all, because it might threaten, somehow, to corrupt the perception of Elfquest as (partly) a multicultural, multiethnic parable?


Yup, that would be the question.

Tavie

RedheadEmber said: But maybe it's being mentioned because it's so vague that it's not even gonna be shown, and definitely not with Ruffel.
So that when continuing with the story readers will be like "did they say the Sunfolk were getting paler? They ain't."
After all; Wendy and Richard aren't above throwing in a few red herrings.


Well that's just really bending over backwards to "undo" what was clearly written in the story. I give the Pinis more credit than that.

Tavie

RichardPini said:
nan said: ...which is why it should have been omitted for the sake of reader sensibilities.

Excuse me? Did I really hear you - singular or plural - telling us what we should or should not say, or how we should or should not tell our story?


I agree with Leanan, so if you're going to get all ruffled-feathers, please ruffle your feathers at the plural "you". :)

Clearly no one can tell you what you can or can't put in your stories, but we're sure as heck going to go ahead and tell you our reactions to stuff you put in your stories. ;)

Your reaction to our reaction is what's throwing some of us off.

Tavie

Rob said:
The Whitening, if it even shows up, could be presented negatively in the course of the story, as a symbolic loss. Maybe it illustrates the Palace's control over the elves, and its willingness to muck with them, acting on its own mysterious notions of consent and purity -- and the willingness of some to give themselves up to it.

Maybe the palace is a NAZI.


This is my favorite fan-wank of all time (I SINCERELY HOPE THIS IS THE CASE)

Seriously, this would resolve it. A reader would just have to keep reading through to understand that line.

Not telling Richard and Wendy they SHOULD make this the case (HIGH ONES FORBID!!!!!) I just want it to be true. Wishlist. Hopelist.

Eyeshigh

I am sorry, but are we really going on about that?

It is a sensative subject, I know and I wish it wasn't... but it will not be unwritten by Richard!
We can either keep on telling what how we feel about it or accept what has been written. I think they know how most of us feel about it (good, bad, Switserland) and it is noted, but it isn't changing anything.

In a perfect world this phrase wouldn't even been noticed, because no one would care about it.
Unfortunatly our world isn't perfect, especially when it comes to the color of ones skin.
But the elfes don't care about skincolor, don't see different races, because they know they are of one race!

A good example on how I see a perfect world! No judging color, gender or preference what so ever....

Tavie

Leanan said: I'm an idiot. Of course it was the wrong word to use. I should have said something along the lines of "if I was writing this story, I would have written something else."


For what it's worth, I totally read your "should" just that way - it didn't seem to me you were trying to be bossy about what they wrote - but as Richard says, we can't "send" so intention is often lost in this medium.

Anyway, I don't think you're an idiot, is the point.

Tavie

lunakat said: Wow. I never said most of that. And regarding said ad hominem- no more comment. I apologize if you were offended.

I'm bowing out too. Goodbye everybody.


OK. This bums me out.

Tavie

Eyeshigh said: I am sorry, but are we really going on about that?


Are you addressing me? (The "Quote" feature is your friend!) :)

Yes, I do apologize for responding to older comments in this thread, but I'm just seeing them now. It's bad netiquette* on my part, one should read through an ENTIRE thread before posting comments and then hopefully keep them all to one post.

My apologies, everyone.


*haha I'm old

Eyeshigh

I can understand you bringing it up again, I wanted to post this before, but then the subject changed, so there was no need for it.
And when you brought it up again, well.... let's just say I felt the need to react on it.

Btw!
You should express yourself (Madonna, cause I am old too ;)). I just wanted to express myself and ask to stop, before we start all over again. I felt terrible reading some comments from fans and Richard. I did agree, at some level, with both parties..... :((
I feel sad that Lunakat has left, maybe only this thread or the whole forum, I don't know and I hope she will return. But I must confess, I was shocked about the way she spoke her mind, especially toward Richard, who explained to a degree on how they want to tell their story, because it is theirs and not ours, eventhough it feels that way!

Anyhow! Don't apologize because you feel the need to response to something! Only apologize if you have delibratly hurt some one ;)
I like to think we can say most everything, since we are all connected thru Elfquest!

Oh... and the quote-thingy.... well lets just say I am old too. =))

Tavie

Eyeshigh said: You should express yourself (Madonna, cause I am old too ;)). I just wanted to express myself and ask to stop, before we start all over again. I felt terrible reading some comments from fans and Richard. I did agree, at some level, with both parties..... :((
I feel sad that Lunakat has left, maybe only this thread or the whole forum, I don't know and I hope she will return. But I must confess, I was shocked about the way she spoke her mind, especially toward Richard, who explained to a degree on how they want to tell their story, because it is theirs and not ours, eventhough it feels that way


I agree with you that we should let it rest, my apologies for restirring the pot. I don't check the forum as often as I would like but I did feel very strongly about voicing some of my opinions in this one.

I agreed with just about everything that Lunakat was saying, so I disagree with you there, but I can understand why you were shocked because it did get very heated.

It's certainly time to move on.

Eyeshigh

@Tavie I didn't say I totally disagreed with her, but telling some one how to do things and the way she said it.....OMHY! Richard didn't have to response to it, but he did which is great that he even takes time to browser this forum......

shoot!

....now it is me who keeps it going..... sorry!







So.... what do you all think will be the suprises Two-Edge talked about?

TwoWolves

I don't think it will be sinister this time with Two Edge! I think having time with Venka might have helped him acquire some level of peace and balance....I just thought of Clearbrooks dreamtime dream, I wonder if they both will meet up again???

Weaver

TwoWolves
5:38PM Flag
I don't think it will be sinister this time with Two Edge! I think having time with Venka might have helped him acquire some level of peace and balance....I just thought of Clearbrooks dreamtime dream, I wonder if they both will meet up again???


Gee, I'm not so sure. We haven't seen him since his mom was killed. Sure he has a special relationship with Venka, but does he harbor a resentment toward her deep down in the part she played in her death? With the separation from his mother, is he exploring his troll side more? I'm preparing myself to see an unhinged Two Edge in 3.5 months.

RedheadEmber

Eyeshigh said: So.... what do you all think will be the suprises Two-Edge talked about?


GUNS! 8-X (For the Go-Backs of course!)



TwoWolves said: I don't think it will be sinister this time with Two Edge! I think having time with Venka might have helped him acquire some level of peace and balance....I just thought of Clearbrooks dreamtime dream, I wonder if they both will meet up again???


I always got the impression that Clearbrook's dream was about what had already happened in Blue Mountain during Siege. !Clearbrook




Weaver said: Gee, I'm not so sure. We haven't seen him since his mom was killed. Sure he has a special relationship with Venka, but does he harbor a resentment toward her deep down in the part she played in her death? With the separation from his mother, is he exploring his troll side more? I'm preparing myself to see an unhinged Two Edge in 3.5 months


Actually... we have. In issue 7.

Eyeshigh

And we saw him joining Venka, Aroree and the Go-Backs. His respons on Venka leaving him made me think he has found a new anchor to keep his sanity. And in his own way he loves her!

But seeing the (Misfit) Trolls might spark his old, broken self and with it the dual on who he is. Elf or Troll. Although I think he has found himself since the Shardwar, accepting he is both. Like Timmorn did eventually.

RedheadEmber

Eyeshigh said: And we saw him joining Venka, Aroree and the Go-Backs.


Well... joining Venka, Aroree and the Go-Backs happened before issue 7 of Final Quest.



Eyeshigh said: Although I think he has found himself since the Shardwar, accepting he is both.


That's my hope too.

Eyeshigh

I am sorry, I was answering Weaver.... I know I should be using the quote-thing, but somehow it doesn't work on my tablet...

Kathleen2point0

Tavie said: Your reaction to our reaction is what's throwing some of us off.


Mr. Pini, you clearly don't want to have this conversation. I can understand that, but you need to understand that not having this conversation here(whether that's in this thread, another thread, where ever) does not mean this conversation will not be happening. It will simply not be happening here. You've made it clear that this isn't a safe space for this conversation, but all that does is move the conversation elsewhere.

I'm not going to stop reading the comic, or commenting here, but I will stop recommending it to people, because I cannot trust that that line is not going to lead somewhere potentially harmful.

Weaver

RedheadEmber said:
Eyeshigh said: And we saw him joining Venka, Aroree and the Go-Backs.

Well... joining Venka, Aroree and the Go-Backs happened before issue 7 of Final Quest.


Really guys? You feel like you've gotten into Two Edges head in the 5 or so panels you've seen him in since Winnowill's death? I guess Ricard isn't the only one who needs to choose his words carefully on these forums lest someone take them out of context. :D

I should have said, "we haven't seen enough of him since Winnowill was killed to get a sense of the state of his mental health."

RedheadEmber

BUT I WANT TWO-EDGE TO BE MENTALLY HEALTHY AND HAPPY, DAMMIT!!!!

Embala

*shhh* Calm down, young chieftess. ^^ I hope with you, Redhead. !Moonshade

Davrille

Kathleen2point0 said: I cannot trust that that line is not going to lead somewhere potentially harmful.


Proving once again that perfection is the enemy of good.

RedheadEmber

Embala said: *shhh* Calm down, young chieftess. ^^ I hope with you, Redhead. !Moonshade


:-j

My hope is that Venka's feelings for Two-Edge will move from pity - which I think is mainly what she felt for him during 'Shards' - to actual love, and I hope the love part happens before any eventual Recognition.

sulken

RedheadEmber said: I always got the impression that Clearbrook's dream was about what had already happened in Blue Mountain during Siege.


Dunno, wouldn't it be more fun, if those dreams foreshadow the future? She practically lives in the troll's dungeon so something similar might happen.

RedheadEmber

sulken said: Dunno, wouldn't it be more fun, if those dreams foreshadow the future? She practically lives in the troll's dungeon so something similar might happen.


Well... I kinda like the idea that we think they all foreshadow the future, but some of them are about things that has already happened. Of course some of them could be a mix.
And Please don't make Treestump's dream come true! The rest of it; the 'learning how to forge metal' part already has come true.
I... also think Pike would prefer if his didn't come true...

sulken

I think that his dream might mean more elves find an unconventional but efficient way to deal with the humans, turning into them.

RedheadEmber

Pike's... or Treestump's?

sulken

Pike's :P

RedheadEmber

So... nobody literally getting transformed into dreamberries? Maybe they all get inflicted by the Great Dreamberry Disease and that's why Cutter is freaking out!

Leanan

Since the matter of the "getting paler" line was brought up again, I'd like to clarify something.

For me this is not a huge issue (which is why I commented with just one short message, not an essay...).

In one of the early ElfQuest Show podcasts David or Ryan said something along the lines of Strongbow not looking like himself in one panel. A tiny little detail they called their 'least favorite' part of the issue in question.

For me the importance of this "getting paler" line and my objection to it is somewhere near that little comment. My 'least favorite' line in all of Final Quest so far. Not something to have a forum war about, or quit this website, or stop reading, or stop recommending. Just a thing I liked less than I liked the rest of it.

Because most of the fantasy books and comics I've read, from Tolkien's time to the current creators of the genre, are WAY more clumsy in their descriptions of race and appearance. Tolkien wrote of dark-skinned and slant-eyed humans as being primitive, allied with evil, even part orc - not fully human. And many of his less skilled imitators have gone along with that setup of pale humans and even paler elves being the force of good. I've read some 'Forgotten Realms' books, (not many because the ones I read were terrible) and in those, the black-skinned 'Drow' elves were an almost uniformly evil race.

I could go on and on with examples of fantasy stories that described race in ways I found uncomfortable, or otherwise displayed the ignorance and prejudice of their authors.

But you probably know the ones I mean already. And compared to all that, this "issue" here is practically insignificant. (Sorry that I had to bring this up again, and sorry that I ended up writing a bit of an essay anyways.)

Eyeshigh

Really guys? You feel like you've gotten into Two Edges head in the 5 or so panels you've seen him in since Winnowill's death? I guess Ricard isn't the only one who needs to choose his words carefully on these forums lest someone take them out of context.  


I was merely expressing my hopes...(fake crying, like my kid does), not telling how the story should be written. (Pouting my lips! And putting up my sweet puppy-eyes.)
I dare not do such a thing! =))
To me it seems he is more sane then he was in OQ, SatBM, Shards, etc, etc. I like believe Venka has a hand in that too.


EDIT: yeah! Got the quote-thingy!!! Now I must add the name too......